OK...so three days until this game. Surprisingly, no discussion so far.
Ohio State is obviously loaded and talented. Sullinger is a great post man, Buford a wing that will play in the NBA, Craft a solid point guard, and they have a bunch of good freshman. Valpo will have 5 days between games while Ohio State will have played cupcakes last night and tomorrow.
Thoughts:
-The game will be a good measure for Van Wijk and Broekhoff since they may match up with Sullinger and Buford. Both should go into the game very confident and solid games should make that confidence even higher.
-Edwards and Vucic will need to play quality minutes to either give Van Wijk a breather or with Van Wijk to relieve him of dealing with Sullinger for awhile. Vucic against Sullinger could be...interesting.
-Valpo will probably need to play zone at least 50% of the time. Ohio State has been inconsistent from the outside - though my guess is that they are a better shooting team than their stats show.
-For Valpo to have any chance, someone has to have a breakout game. My choice for this is Jay Harris. He has shown improvement and signs of confidence and maturity. Get him hot!
-My guess is that with the job Bryce has done and the character of the players, the effort will be there. Despite the heart, the lack of depth and consistent scoring beyond Broekhoff and Van Wijk will probably make for a long evening with scoring droughts.
Prediction: Ohio State 79 Valpo 59
i think it'll be closer than 20, but probably not by much. hopefully we don't get run out of the gym though. we'll have to shoot lights out from three. the kvw-sullinger matchup is intriguing - they're listed as only an inch apart, but sullinger's got 40 pounds on kevin. but i think kevin's ability and willingness to bang around down low could cause a bit of a problem for them. broekhoff and jay are both gonna need good performances, and if vucic can do anything, it'll be good. he's supposedly got 4 inches on sullinger, and 2 inches on their tallest player, amir williams, who's apparently a very lean 6'11"/220lbs. in the end, their depth will overcome. ohio state takes it 86-70
for what it's worth, they opened their season against wright state, and absolutely dismantled them.
If Valpo can stay within 10-15 points given our current depth issues I'll be impressed. Ohio State is stacked, and our guys are going to have to play at their very best to have a chance.
Ohio State 82
Valpo 68
We will keep it close for the first half within 6-7 points, and then OSU will storm out of halftime to keep it in double digits the rest of the game. In other words, what always happens against top teams :-).
It will tell us a lot about how good we really are. I think we've come a long way since the AZ game and in the end that result was respectable. Obviously, being on the road at a Big Ten school is never easy. Still, the matchups are intriguing. Edwards-Thomas--both 6-7", Kenney-Smith, both 6'4" , Buford-Ryan both about 6'6", Buggs-Craft, Buggs is smaller but faster, and of course Kevin and Sullinger--who knows whether anyone can stop Sullinger. Depth will be an issue and with Tommy not playing so well any pressure will be potentially a problem. I don't expect full court stuff however.
A decent showing for a team still growing together and very shorthanded. Ohio State 79 Valpo 67
Buggs and KVW need to stay out of foul trouble. Everyone will need to hit the boards.
OSU - 77
Valpo - 64
I think the Craft - Buggs matchup will be just as intriguing as both are very good defensive points.
Lowposter
Valpo 70
Ohio State 74
I think this Crusader team will make a huge push at the end of the game that will fall just short of upsetting the Buckeyes. Valpo will be down early in the 2nd half by 10-15 points but will storm back in the last 6 minutes for the 4 point loss.
This could wind up being a trap game for Ohio State. They played yesterday against North Florida and tomorrow against VMI. They also have a big game against #6 Duke coming up in a week. We might be catching them at just the right time. Plus you add in the fact that Valpo is coming off of two great wins.
I looked back at previous Valpo schedules the past 10 seasons and we've never faced a ranked team with this much momentum. The closest thing I found was back in the 2001-2002 season, when we beat West Virginia 76-57 and then barely lost to #14 Arizona 74-70. The other times we faced ranked teams, have been early in the season or when we've been on long losing streaks.
I know Ohio State is a great team, but I think we have a puncher's chance to pull off the big upset.
72-70 Valpo.
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call. Has anyone seen anything about streaming video options?
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PMHas anyone seen anything about streaming video options?
There might be something at www.firstrowsports.tv (http://www.firstrowsports.tv) on Friday night.
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call.
All respect to Mr. Ickow and Mr. Gillogly on WAKE, but I'd say that BTN is worth it if you can access it. Wayne Larrivee of Green Bay Packer/Chicago Bear fame is on play-by-play, a personal favorite of mine whose got a great call for both football and basketball. Jimmy Jackson on color commentary if you care to know. Found this info on the Ohio State athletics site.
Quote from: KL31NY on November 22, 2011, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call.
All respect to Mr. Ickow and Mr. Gillogly on WAKE, but I'd say that BTN is worth it if you can access it. Wayne Larrivee of Green Bay Packer/Chicago Bear fame is on play-by-play, a personal favorite of mine whose got a great call for both football and basketball. Jimmy Jackson on color commentary if you care to know. Found this info on the Ohio State athletics site.
agibson is not saying anything about the quality of the broadcast on BTN. He's saying he will be in another part of the country and won't have access to BTN therefore his only access will be to the WAKE radio call. Although I would make sure you check the listings. I have know someone in Florida that gets BTN on his TV system.
Quote from: bbtds on November 23, 2011, 01:44:52 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on November 22, 2011, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call.
All respect to Mr. Ickow and Mr. Gillogly on WAKE, but I'd say that BTN is worth it if you can access it. Wayne Larrivee of Green Bay Packer/Chicago Bear fame is on play-by-play, a personal favorite of mine whose got a great call for both football and basketball. Jimmy Jackson on color commentary if you care to know. Found this info on the Ohio State athletics site.
agibson is not saying anything about the quality of the broadcast on BTN. He's saying he will be in another part of the country and won't have access to BTN therefore his only access will be to the WAKE radio call. Although I would make sure you check the listings. I have know someone in Florida that gets BTN on his TV system.
I get the BTN here on Verizon Fios, firmly in the middle of ACC country.
Quote from: bbtds on November 23, 2011, 01:44:52 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on November 22, 2011, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call.
All respect to Mr. Ickow and Mr. Gillogly on WAKE, but I'd say that BTN is worth it if you can access it. Wayne Larrivee of Green Bay Packer/Chicago Bear fame is on play-by-play, a personal favorite of mine whose got a great call for both football and basketball. Jimmy Jackson on color commentary if you care to know. Found this info on the Ohio State athletics site.
agibson is not saying anything about the quality of the broadcast on BTN. He's saying he will be in another part of the country and won't have access to BTN therefore his only access will be to the WAKE radio call. Although I would make sure you check the listings. I have know someone in Florida that gets BTN on his TV system.
My apologies if it seemed like I was saying anything about agibson's broadcast preferences. All I mean to say is that given the choice between the two, I would go with BTN. Also, since it's a road game, it would probably be Mr. Ickow and Mr. Leavitt instead. Still fun.
Mr Gillogly will be on hand.
Yeah, just saw it on the game notes. Perhaps Mr. Leavitt is going with volleyball this weekend or getting a well-deserved break.
Also, on the Jessica Carr pick on the front page of ValpoAthletics, you can find a very casual-looking Mark LaBarbera in the temporary bleachers. Enjoy!
http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/11/game-preview-ohio-state-university.html (http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/11/game-preview-ohio-state-university.html)
One thing I noticed in reading sectionee's preview was how he stated that zone might be the best option for us to play. I actually think that man to man would be better because it is easier to trap the big man and I feel that we do a better job of rebounding in man. When you get into a zone it can get confusing and people go free to the boards and we CANNOT allow a lot of second chance points in this game. Another thing I think we will do is run a lil of ND's burn offense to shorten the game. Once the shot clock gets down to 15 seconds, get the ball to Buggs and run a set. I think Bryce will have a good gameplan and if we can execute, I believe we can give OSU a tougher test than they expect.
Although Wayne Larrivee and Jimmy Jackson are decent broadcasters, I prefer Todd because I'm not as big a fan of the Majors as I am the Mid-Majors.
Quote from: chef on November 23, 2011, 10:51:55 AM
Mr Gillogly will be on hand.
Would you rather work with Wayne Larrivee and Jimmy Jackson? ;D
Quote from: valpo4life on November 23, 2011, 01:27:55 PM
One thing I noticed in reading sectionee's preview was how he stated that zone might be the best option for us to play. I actually think that man to man would be better because it is easier to trap the big man and I feel that we do a better job of rebounding in man. When you get into a zone it can get confusing and people go free to the boards and we CANNOT allow a lot of second chance points in this game. Another thing I think we will do is run a lil of ND's burn offense to shorten the game. Once the shot clock gets down to 15 seconds, get the ball to Buggs and run a set. I think Bryce will have a good gameplan and if we can execute, I believe we can give OSU a tougher test than they expect.
You are probably right, we probably will play mostly man. I don't know how well the guys could really execute a zone defense since they don't seem to play it often. I was just stating that since OSU's outside shooting has been so poor and we will need to focus on stopping the big fella zone could be a good option. But you are right, it is definitely easier to trap and rebound in man. I can't wait for Friday!
Quote from: KL31NY on November 23, 2011, 08:47:31 AM
Quote from: bbtds on November 23, 2011, 01:44:52 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on November 22, 2011, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: agibson on November 22, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
I know the game's on BTN, which we might even get at home on Valpo Comcast. But, I'm spending Thanksgiving in ACC country. I guess we'll have the usual WAKE stream of the radio call.
All respect to Mr. Ickow and Mr. Gillogly on WAKE, but I'd say that BTN is worth it if you can access it. Wayne Larrivee of Green Bay Packer/Chicago Bear fame is on play-by-play, a personal favorite of mine whose got a great call for both football and basketball. Jimmy Jackson on color commentary if you care to know. Found this info on the Ohio State athletics site.
agibson is not saying anything about the quality of the broadcast on BTN. He's saying he will be in another part of the country and won't have access to BTN therefore his only access will be to the WAKE radio call. Although I would make sure you check the listings. I have know someone in Florida that gets BTN on his TV system.
My apologies if it seemed like I was saying anything about agibson's broadcast preferences. All I mean to say is that given the choice between the two, I would go with BTN. Also, since it's a road game, it would probably be Mr. Ickow and Mr. Leavitt instead. Still fun.
That's the way I took it too...no harm, no foul
Quote from: KL31NY on November 23, 2011, 08:47:31 AMMy apologies if it seemed like I was saying anything about agibson's broadcast preferences. All I mean to say is that given the choice between the two, I would go with BTN. Also, since it's a road game, it would probably be Mr. Ickow and Mr. Leavitt instead. Still fun.
Bbtds was right about my intent (and I will double check, but I'm not hopeful, about BTN) - but I did also appreciate the recommendation for the BTN announcers.
SectionEE hit a personal milestone this month. So we are giving away a prize! Who doesn't love prizes? http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-doesnt-love-winning.html (http://sectionee.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-doesnt-love-winning.html)
I'm watching the VMI-Ohio St. game, and I hope this game continues at the kind of pace that VMI's modified Grinnell system has. The fast transition, shoot often, score a lot, could really keep Ohio St. on its toes, meaning it could help us Friday night, if this Grinnell-like system really helps wear down the Buckeyes. Granted, with 3:58 left in the 1st half, OSU leads 45-31, but that's still a possibility that they could get worn out.
An Ohio State board poster lamenting the fact that OSU plays 3 games in 5 days:
Both VMU and Valpo could beat Ohio State.
VMU is 3-1 with only loss at a an above-average Air Force. And, they've got a senior laden backcourt -- 4 senior guards in their 7-man rotation. They were picked third in the league. The team picked #7? Presbyterian -- who just beat a Top 25 Cincinnati team.
And Valpo's not qualified good. They're just good. A borderline NCAA tournament team who's 3 top players are very experienced on the international basketball circuit (World University Games, etc) with legitimate interior size and a bunch of experienced transfers from other D1 schools.
Bad, bad, bad decision by someone in the Atheletic Director's office.
Some responses to the above post:
First, it's the coaching staff that puts the schedule together. They work with the university around scheduling for the facility, obviously, but it's the staff that puts together the dates generally speaking.
Second, I think you're overrating Valpo a bit. They're OK but they're not an at-large caliber team by any stretch of the imagination. They were picked fourth in the preseason conference poll, and that's probably about where they'll finish.
Third... I think Ohio State needs to be able to have this kind of high-pressure turnaround. Do you think they're going to catch any breaks playing in the Big Ten Tournament or NCAA Tournament? They'll need to be able to play against quality opponents in a short amount of time.
Getting to watch games and play games is better than practice...and these are 3 patsies...as long as we show up, we'll win each by 20 or more
3 games in 5 days....how brutal.
All of these preseason tournaments where all these teams play 3 games in 3 days without any problem....in Hawaii or Puerto Rico no less. OSU has 3 games....at home...in 5 days....how will they ever survive?
Sorry OP....but you crazy.
In the NCAA Tournament they could play Friday, Sunday, following Thursday and Saturday. That is 3 games in 7 days and 4 games in 9 days. What better way to teach a young team what and how they need to prepare, and take care of their bodies than this weeks test?
I feel the opposite. I think they should play more games during the break, or like this week with the holiday days off, and less when classes are in session. 3/5 during thanksgiving is fine. They are ALL HOME games and against teams that shouldn't be that tuff. Then they play dook at home next Tuesday and a patsy Sat before finals week.
The scheduling/game I don't like much is playing Kansas AWAY, our first road test of any kind, the weekend right after finals week. That will be a tuff game to win given the circumstances.
Playing a lot of home games when you don't have classes is EASY. Playing road games with classes or right after the stress of finals - not so easy.
I think they do it more because they like to keep open finals week so the team can focus on their tests during that time. So, they need to front load some of the games so that they can open that week up. I believe that is the week-long break from December 3rd to December 10th. Also, it gives the players the feel of the NCAA tournament, which really isn't a bad thing either.
If we lose to North Florida or VMU, then we have lots of issues to be worried about - more than just the AD who scheduled the games .
Valpo will be a much tougher test and I could see that being a tight game, especially being on the end of 3 games in 5 days.
Big 10 sets the conference schedule, and basketball COACHES SET the OOC schedule other than Big 10-ACC Challenge.
How many days of school did they have this week?
Not a big deal. Caliber of opposition will let Thad play plenty of people, and there's three days off before Duke visits, am I right?
Hahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahaha!
Two down, one to go!
I would love to see us win, just don't see it happening with the short bench unfortunately.
Crusaders take five-game men's basketball winning streak to Ohio State
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/crusaders-take-five-game-men-s-basketball-winning-streak-to/article_5e5edd28-e251-512b-b0da-87677f8608dc.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/crusaders-take-five-game-men-s-basketball-winning-streak-to/article_5e5edd28-e251-512b-b0da-87677f8608dc.html)
I see the Vegas odds currently have Ohio State favored by 24 points. We have beaten the spread in every game thus far, so I will say we do so again, which will be good enough for me.
Valpo 64
OSU 82
Quote from: wh on November 24, 2011, 06:53:30 PM
Crusaders take five-game men's basketball winning streak to Ohio State
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/crusaders-take-five-game-men-s-basketball-winning-streak-to/article_5e5edd28-e251-512b-b0da-87677f8608dc.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/crusaders-take-five-game-men-s-basketball-winning-streak-to/article_5e5edd28-e251-512b-b0da-87677f8608dc.html)
I like the discussion of Ohio State's vs. our version of the series history. It really seems like you should leave losses on your record, when games are vacated because of NCAA violations.
The quotes from Bryce, on scheduling, were interesting too.
Quote
"We've been trying to schedule a lot of local games, but our team has played against so many top-five teams in the country that they really enjoy these opportunities."
It's a joke that they don't list their losses from years where they cheated. If we beat them when they cheated, it should count. I sure as heck remember that game, and it is sad that future OSU fans won't know that they lost to us because of this record book. Well, maybe we can add another this year to go up 2-1 on them :-)
Here we go Crusader Nation. Just keep playing this cheer over and over again until the 6:30 pm (eastern)/5:30 pm (central) game time to fire yourself up for tonight's game at Columbus, OH against the Buckeyes:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/39091/coolest-chant-in-the-country-began-at-navy (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/39091/coolest-chant-in-the-country-began-at-navy)
Quote from: valpotx on November 25, 2011, 01:58:10 AM
It's a joke that they don't list their losses from years where they cheated. If we beat them when they cheated, it should count. I sure as heck remember that game, and it is sad that future OSU fans won't know that they lost to us because of this record book. Well, maybe we can add another this year to go up 2-1 on them :-)
This from Wikipedia about former OSU bb coach Jim O'Brien:
In September 1998, Coach O'Brien was recruiting Alex Radojevic, a foreign national from Yugoslavia. Coach O'Brien sent $6,000 to Radojevic's mother. Radojevic ultimately did not play for Ohio State after signing a contract to play professional basketball, and Coach O'Brien did not share the facts of the loan with Ohio State's athletic director, Andy Geiger, until April 24, 2004.[2]
At 8:30 a.m. on June 8, 2004, without any prior discussion, Mr. Geiger handed Coach O'Brien a letter notifying him of his immediate termination. The conduct that the University identified as justifying its conclusion that he had violated an NCAA rule and thereby materially breached the Agreement was his provision of financial assistance to the Radojevic family. The letter did not address the rules violations involving another player on the team, Boban Savovic, which were not known at the time but would eventually lead to the severe NCAA sanctions and O'Brien's ban from coaching.
Savovic was also from Yugoslavia, but actually played for the Buckeyes from 1999 to 2002. He was later found to have received improper benefits and to have committed academic fraud. The NCAA in 2006 gave Ohio State three years' probation and ordered it to pay back all tournament money earned from 1999-2002 when Savovic was on the Buckeyes' roster. In addition, Ohio State was forced remove all references to team accomplishments from those years and vacate all team wins.I guess technically losses could also be construed as "team accomplishments." Kind of like an F could be called an academic accomplishment? ??? Rather than wiping out anything, they should have to keep every reference and simply add the word "forfeit" after every win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_O'Brien_(basketball,_born_1949) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_O'Brien_(basketball,_born_1949))
How about using words like these....despite cheating the Buckeyes lost to Valparaiso.
Maybe they should have to emphasize their losses. They couldn't even win while cheating. ;)
We're a 22.5 point dog according to this mornings USA Today. Take the points and bet heavily!
What we saw last week was a group of underclassmen playing like seniors. If Edwards can come back tonight and contribute 20 minutes of solid controlled basketball then it is very difficult to argue with 72's conclusion. My best guess is OSU by 13 and a down to the wire finish could happen. So make the bet and cross your fingers.
Looks promising for streaming video. It's available, depending on cable provider. If my parents have an account and password for their dishnetwork...
I'll predict Valpo loses a close one:
OSU - 71
VU - 66
Good Luck Crusaders!
No love on the BTN streaming video - only works if you literally get the BTN at home. But, the larger world of pixelvision doth provide.
Down 4 af the break. Need to get some turnovers and get KVW going.
Terrible start to the second half....typical Valpo style. And still no free throws? on the plus side our 3-point shooting isn't that bad.
To be in this game we needed a great game from Kevin and he has been absolutely awful tonight.
To be fair, KVW's had a certain amount of competition under the basket.
Quote from: agibson on November 25, 2011, 06:51:36 PM
To be fair, KVW's had a certain amount of competition under the basket.
Not saying he didn't, but we had people on here comparing him to Bryce, Graf, and Oppland after 4 games. None of those guys would have disappeared this badly no matter the competition.
Textbook second half collapse by valpo against a good team. Extremely embarrassing overall. Sloppy play, Easy baskets missed, no defense. 1 steal to their 12 steals, and 18 turnovers. Decent 3 point shooting, but only two free throw attempts? Will we ever have a shot against a top 25 team?
Friends, I only saw the last 15 minutes of the game...well minus the final 2 minutes which were turned off due to viewer disgust. It was utterly pitiful and infuriating to watch. How was this a 4 point game at half time? What did Valpo do in the first half that disappeared in the second? This reminded me of watching the Kansas game last year: "Oh, there's an open layup...no. Oh, there's an open layup...no. Oh, there's an easy put back...no." sigh...
Oh well...the good news is a 40 point loss is no more a loss than a 1 point loss (minus rpi, pride, and reputation) it's all 1 in the L column. Still going into a big game against a beatable Butler! Go get that W!
Quote from: govalpogo on November 25, 2011, 07:26:25 PMWhat did Valpo do in the first half that disappeared in the second?
Played against a strong team that was struggling to find their rhythm.
Quote from: govalpogo on November 25, 2011, 07:26:25 PMOh well...the good news is a 40 point loss is no more a loss than a 1 point loss (minus rpi, pride, and reputation) it's all 1 in the L column
For RPI too, a loss is a loss. But, pride, reputation, yeah, OK.
Ugly, ugly second half. With all of the missed opportunities this easily could have been a much closer game. I knew it was going to be very tough for us on the inside, but I didn't think that Van Wijk was going to be completely shut down. That along with the turnovers killed any chance we had at staying with them, because you can't hit the three forever.
Positives... Vucic was able to give some quality minutes and put up some points, even though he had several easy layups that should have gone in. If he can give quality minutes against Ohio State then he should be able to do the same against any other team we play this year to give Van Wijk some rest. Another was Harris, who demonstrated tonight that he can be a very dangerous shooter. I don't think Ohio State was expecting that from him coming off the bench.
Obviously, after a decent first half, the second half was definitely a disappointment, to say the least. One could optimistically say, the glass was only half full.
Most of us figured OSU to score 80 points or so for the game, but nobody really expected Valpo to score less than 50. I hope the poor display by Kevin, who had difficulty on both ends of the floor, was due to his playing against Sullinger, a Player of the Year candidate, and not a sign of any physical problem returning. The lack of scoring also showed how important it is for the team to get to the free throw line this season.
In any case, I prefer to look at this night as the splash of cold water (from a half-full glass) to the face we might have needed after the three-game sweep a week ago. Perhaps this will convince the team of the need to re-focus as we go into the Butler game and look to the rest of the season. Also, as I have said before, I look at this team as being on a two-year projection, and every game this year will only prepare these players for the big year I expect from them next season.
Frustration is an attitude killer. I am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach. I am not just talking about fouls, but several other blatantly bad calls were made. The fact that we did not shoot a foul until under 2 minutes remaining in the game was a joke, and I don't want to hear that we were not driving to the basket because we were and were getting fouled but they were not called. This kind of frustration really wears on a team and it showed as the game wore on. What a joke that we were called for a technical foul when Sullinger was well out of bounds preventing the inbounds pass.
Can anybody make me a loan? Remember, I'm the one who said "bet heavily" on the 22.5 point spread. Nonetheless, the game showed how dominant OSU is on the inside, and they were unbelievable from the 3 in the second half.
Every bunny we missed was the result of Sullinger and their other very big guys. We simply couldn't get position on the boards and I'm sure this will be a point of practice in the next week.
I did see some positives. As noted by others Vucic played a very solid game and we are starting to see the all conference player that Harris can be. Ryan played his normal full game and, as pointed out earlier, Kevin was the big question. Obviously they had a game plan of limiting his touches and their guys on the perimeter were such great defenders that we had trouble taking advantage of their double teams down low.
I don't see a major mental beating, but rather a wake up call for a still young team that has played only a few games together. Somehow I think that Fernandez and/or Capobianco would make this a different game--who knows.
And as for Bryce, how about his first T!! Can't imagine he swore at the ref but the ref sure was quick with the call. Bryce was obviously right. Finally as for the foul shooting differential, I think we were hacked on several occasions, but overall I think it was just great D on their part... On to Butler!
Quote from: vu72 on November 25, 2011, 08:10:09 PMAnd as for Bryce, how about his first T!! Can't imagine he swore at the ref but the ref sure was quick with the call. Bryce was obviously right.
I'm can't imagine vu72 missed what the tech was really for, but it was a dumb call. First, Ryan can't get the ball in when the defender is manhandling him. Second, how do you not see a foot as huge as Sullinger's not in the red portion of the sidelines? Finally, why did we need to spend all of our timeouts so quickly?
Quote from: FWalum on November 25, 2011, 07:56:53 PMthis was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen
Seems pretty much routine when we play at a big school. They are extremely physical with us and seldom get called for it - we get called for every contact. Happens every time. No we probably wouldn't have won this game. Ohio State is really good and would have won straight up. We gave them lots of unforced turnovers and couldn't hit a shot in the second half. They didn't need the help.
Quote from: vu72 on November 25, 2011, 08:10:09 PMFinally as for the foul shooting differential, I think we were hacked on several occasions, but overall I think it was just great D on their part.
Here is what happens when you don't get calls... you start to rush and hurry to get off a clean shot which of course causes more misses. Come on, their guy is getting the call when, as the Ohio State announcers joked, he is tripping over his own feet and we did not get one call when driving to the basket? That is unacceptable and that crew should be taken to task. I said that the Akron coach should have gotten a T in our game and I think it would have been better for Bryce to get a T much earlier in the second half. Make them replay the bad calls about 3 times on the video screen and perhaps the crew gets the message.
Sometimes the other guys are just better than you
Quote from: vu72 on November 25, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
We're a 22.5 point dog according to this mornings USA Today. Take the points and bet heavily!
Quote from: justducky on November 25, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
What we saw last week was a group of underclassmen playing like seniors. If Edwards can come back tonight and contribute 20 minutes of solid controlled basketball then it is very difficult to argue with 72's conclusion. My best guess is OSU by 13 and a down to the wire finish could happen. So make the bet and cross your fingers.
Since I know that it will cheer some of you guys up, 72 and I are both now broke, homeless and will soon be living under a local bridge in adjacent cardboard boxes. I hope that none of you were foolish enough to assume that either of us knew anything at all about the game of basketball. We may try to sneak into a game soon so that we can rummage through the trash looking for half eaten boxes of popcorn. We should be easily recognized but if not just keep your nose-out for us.
QuoteSometimes the other guys are just better than you
Never said that they weren't, but as a former coach I get so frustrated watching games that are called this way knowing what is happening to the mindset of your team.
Quote from: FWalum on November 25, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
Frustration is an attitude killer. I am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach. I am not just talking about fouls, but several other blatantly bad calls were made. The fact that we did not shoot a foul until under 2 minutes remaining in the game was a joke, and I don't want to hear that we were not driving to the basket because we were and were getting fouled but they were not called. This kind of frustration really wears on a team and it showed as the game wore on. What a joke that we were called for a technical foul when Sullinger was well out of bounds preventing the inbounds pass.
Agree 100%. Nobody thinks the refs cost us the game, but I think it's ridiculous that we have to lose in 5-on-8. Isn't it enough to be outclassed by the other 5? Is it really too much to ask to get an evenly called game -- more of a concerted effort at acknowledging and respecting that both teams play by the same rules?
Forget the loss, I had that chalked up going in -- in the sense that if OSU played their best they were going to win convincingly. They got a bunch of lucky bounces too, and I bear them no malice for that. It happens, and Valpo has benefited from lucky bounces just like everybody else has.
I just ask that fouls be called and non-fouls not be called without regard to which team is victim/beneficiary. I'm not asking that they favor the visitors to try to even the odds for us. If they're 5 are better than our 5, then we lose unless they take us for granted (which rarely happens for more than the first half). We lose by 5, we lose by 30. Either way, that's fair.
But I can't help feeling like a good 8-10 points of that deficit tonight was influenced by zebra favoritism and that shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen for us when we host a D-III team, and it shouldn't happen for OSU when they host us or anyone else for that matter. I estimate there were 6-8 OSU fouls that were not called for reasons passing understanding. One of them was then compounded by an end-line violation that wasn't called and led to a Tech for a timeout we didn't have. I'd settle for saying Ryan should have bounced the ball off Sullinger's leg and out of bounds to get a re-rack or something, and that the Tech was appropriate because a rule is a rule. But I can't help feeling that Sullinger should have had 5 fouls by then. There was another one which resulted in an out-on-Valpo call. I thought the change of possession was wrong but somebody pointed out that if nobody touched it after it rimmed out, then the call was right, and there's a decent chance that's what happened.
It's games like this that make me question the strategy of playing top 10 teams on their home court. It's also games like this that have my mind immediately conjuring up the prostitution analogy. Even if it's the "classy" kind, it's still hard to swallow.
I'm not saying it's over the top. In fact, I'm not really saying it happens on purpose. I kinda think it doesn't. I don't chalk it up to some sort of conspiracy. I chalk it up to laziness and possibly a small measure of disdain.
One startling statistic: Ohio St scored as many points in the second half as we scored the whole game.
Quote from: FWalum on November 25, 2011, 08:44:42 PM
QuoteSometimes the other guys are just better than you
Never said that they weren't, but as a former coach I get so frustrated watching games that are called this way knowing what is happening to the mindset of your team.
Totally agree with you FWalum. Valpo didn't play well enough to win but they weren't even given a chance by the refs. Whoever reviews the game tapes of this game has got to see that they missed call after call on Ohio State fouls. My God, Valpo shot 2 free throws. This crew just blew the game and since Valpo fans and admins will only sound like whiners when they complain about it the refs can get away with it. If Ohio State had been hosed like that by the refs the crowd would have been extremely loud and boisterous and the calls would have started to even out. Since it was only Bryce complaining it was acceptable.
I understand the point on the refs, and agree we were not getting calls. We need to fix our own house first, and we need to beat Butler. Now more important, what are we learning. 1. We have got to learn how to play the first 5 mins of 2d half against ranked teams. 18-2 run for OSU in first 5-8 mins v OSU. Scoreless for 8 plus mins v AZ. Very good teams adjust and we are not rising our level of play. 2. As good as KVW has been. He showed his weaknesses today. Patience. Holding the ball so smurfs can get it. Not going stronger to hole to make the refs call. 3. Vucic is getting better and contributing. He should be able to give good minutes against Butler's Smith and UWGB's big. Plus he runs the pick and roll pretty well. 4. Harris can flat out shoot. 5. Bogan has got to be more consistent, but he has some serious range. 6. We have to stop stupid turnovers and fouls, especially Buggs. We need him on the floor.
All points well taken, 84. With all that was said by me, I can still agree that it is possible to control your own reaction to the obstacles that take place in a game. I've been venting as a fan, and if I were a coach, I'd probably find quiet ways to impress these points on whoever would listen, but I'd want my players to control what they can control and not let frustration get the better of them.
I think we should be able to learn from this game and use that to get better. I certainly hope Matt and Kevin can learn some valuable lessons from this game.
OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout. How would you like to be a sub on that team?
Quote from: wh on November 26, 2011, 02:55:54 AM
OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout. How would you like to be a sub on that team?
And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.
Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?
move on... Ohio State... Who?
Quote from: Valpo89 on November 26, 2011, 10:13:13 AM
Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?
Pretty sure no one here has made the argument that we would have won if the officials were better. In fact, the person you specifically call out said:
Quote from: FWalum on November 25, 2011, 07:56:53 PMI am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach.
If you don't think the officiating was bad last night no matter the outcome, I'm not sure what game you were watching.
Prettys good experience last night. Not too many positives, but let's face it, OSU has athletes at every position. Note the difference - when OSU had open looks, they buried them. Our 3 point shooters, outside of Harris are not that good.
Officiating is officiating. I was very frustrated early in the 2H but came to the realization these officials are there for a purpose. Let the blood flow. A mid major will not receive calls once the momentum shifts on the road. So, dont let the momentum shift. Those are the lessons learned from the Arizona and OSU games. Teams must fight thru these moments on the road.
Vucic is not too far off from making contributions. His overall footwork is not bad for a 7 footer, but his footwork near the basket needs work. lots of work. I think he will be able to make contributions as the season progresses, but realize he will have his moments...both positive and negetive.
Quote from: valpo84 on November 25, 2011, 11:22:34 PMI understand the point on the refs, and agree we were not getting calls. We need to fix our own house first, and we need to beat Butler. Now more important, what are we learning. 1. We have got to learn how to play the first 5 mins of 2d half against ranked teams. 18-2 run for OSU in first 5-8 mins v OSU. Scoreless for 8 plus mins v AZ. Very good teams adjust and we are not rising our level of play. 2. As good as KVW has been. He showed his weaknesses today. Patience. Holding the ball so smurfs can get it. Not going stronger to hole to make the refs call. 3. Vucic is getting better and contributing. He should be able to give good minutes against Butler's Smith and UWGB's big. Plus he runs the pick and roll pretty well. 4. Harris can flat out shoot. 5. Bogan has got to be more consistent, but he has some serious range. 6. We have to stop stupid turnovers and fouls, especially Buggs. We need him on the floor.
Quote from: Valpo89 on November 26, 2011, 10:13:13 AM
Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?
Never said it would have changed the outcome. I just don't like seeing lazy refs get paid for not doing their job. Been on both sides of that coin and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth either way. I sympathized with the Akron coach but the crew in that game was not nearly as bad as this crew.
Now that I have cooled down a bit it is time for a little analysis. I thought that Ohio State was able to push our offense way too far out onto the floor. If you are running a lot a back cuts and shooting the 3 very well this is kind of ok, but it seemed to have Kevin and others way too far from the basket requiring that extra couple of dribbles or an extra move that allows the defense time to react and get that strip or better defensive position. We became very indecisive in the second half causing just terrible passes that really were not a result of defensive pressure just a pass made too late. Valpo84 is right about Kevin and his low ball position. This was magnified by his being further from the basket than he had been in the previous games allowing Craft to strip the ball several times (not always cleanly). Sullinger was also not allowing him to progress to the basket (using proper technique) as quickly as he had in previous games.
Now what does everyone think about Vucic? I am waiting to read some crow eating from a few of our posters that would have NEVER thought he could have played reasonably well for 16 minutes against the #3 team in the country. He still has a ways to go to be a really effective contributor but I like the direction things are moving. You can tell he is putting in some hard work. Last night can do nothing but help his confidence.
Jay Harris grew up a little last night. Very good effort in the first half!
I was afraid that Broekhoff, when faced with being one of the defensive focal points, would disappear in games. He may not have had a great scoring night but he really did a good job on the boards. I think his rebounding has improved even from last years fairly high level.
Buggs is as quick as anybody on any team we have played. His play has improved from last year, but he still needs to make better decisions and show more control in these big games.
I think that Bryce has shown that we can and have made adjustments in every game other than the games against Arizona and Ohio State. Do we have another gear in us like these teams? If we don't, we need to find one.
I won't comment anymore on the officiating in the game. It is best forgotten and placed in perspective. Time to concentrate on Butler.
I have been saying all along that Vucic will be able to contribute solid minutes for us, as anyone should be able to the see the improvements he has made since his 1st and 2nd years. My memory of him his first year when he redshirted was during the Madness celebration, and this big/skinny 7'0" guy trying to dance very uncoordinated. Last year, he was the guy that had no clue when he was put into a game. Now, he still probably can't dance, but his coordination seems much better, and he actually seems to understand the flow of the game. He understands that he has height, and that height should allow him to shoot more when he gets the ball. Stop hating on a big man that doesn't come in immediately showing he has 'game,' and realize any 7'0" guy we ever get from now on will be a project. The days of us getting a Raitis Grafs who instantly dominates are over now that all teams go overseas.
Quote from: bbtds on November 26, 2011, 05:20:30 AM
Quote from: wh on November 26, 2011, 02:55:54 AM
OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout. How would you like to be a sub on that team?
And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.
I don't know there's two sides to this coin. It's nice to be a part of a winner on a high level even if you don't see the floor much. Going to the Final 4 and competing for a national title can be just as rewarding as playing for a mid major and sitting home during the NCAA's every year.
Quote from: milanmiracle on November 27, 2011, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: bbtds on November 26, 2011, 05:20:30 AM
Quote from: wh on November 26, 2011, 02:55:54 AM
OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout. How would you like to be a sub on that team?
And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.
I don't know there's two sides to this coin. It's nice to be a part of a winner on a high level even if you don't see the floor much. Going to the Final 4 and competing for a national title can be just as rewarding as playing for a mid major and sitting home during the NCAA's every year.
Really? I'm sure if we had a vote of talented high school athletes their number one goal would be to sit on the bench most of the season while the starters and rotation players competed for a national title. I just don't see that as a high priority on an athlete's agenda. What I see as a goal is playing the game they love. Sometimes they just have to come to the realization that they will not be a starter or rotation player on a Big Six or Final Four team. There sure are a lot who transfer down from the Big Six schools once they come to that realization.
Quote from: bbtds on November 27, 2011, 10:35:22 PM
Quote from: milanmiracle on November 27, 2011, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: bbtds on November 26, 2011, 05:20:30 AM
Quote from: wh on November 26, 2011, 02:55:54 AM
OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout. How would you like to be a sub on that team?
And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.
I don't know there's two sides to this coin. It's nice to be a part of a winner on a high level even if you don't see the floor much. Going to the Final 4 and competing for a national title can be just as rewarding as playing for a mid major and sitting home during the NCAA's every year.
Really? I'm sure if we had a vote of talented high school athletes their number one goal would be to sit on the bench most of the season while the starters and rotation players competed for a national title. I just don't see that as a high priority on an athlete's agenda. What I see as a goal is playing the game they love. Sometimes they just have to come to the realization that they will not be a starter or rotation player on a Big Six or Final Four team. There sure are a lot who transfer down from the Big Six schools once they come to that realization.
Ask Cassie Kerns.
I wouldn't think so either, but apparently it happens sometimes.
Don't feel bad about this game...OSU leads Duke by 19 at the half!
If you take out the Florida game (#8 Florida played them to within 7), we were just about at their average margin of victory.
Maybe #4 Duke will due better. The Ohio State lead is back down to 19, with four minutes to play.
Maybe OSU will find playing at Kansas a bit tougher.
Ohio State beats Duke 85-63.
Two quick thoughts: First, Ohio State is really good, so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised with the outcome. Valpo kept it close through one half, then in the second half VU couldn't make a shot and OSU seemingly couldn't miss -- with the superior talent of OSU that is insurmountable.
Second, while I have wondered about the wisdom of scheduling one of these elite teams, it can have the effect of pointing out the weaknesses on the team, some of which can be fixed through coaching. This group of players is still learning how to gell under their new head coach. Of course, hitting a few more shots would have helped as well, but we'll know more about this team after Butler.