The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

Quotevu72 said on 3/15/2011 11:44 am:

The point isn't to criticise anyone who is negative or critical of Valpo, but rather to jump on just dumb posts. When someone says "Butler is head and shoulders" better than Valpo, it is just stupid or at the best, uninformed. It is the stuff of those who will never be satisfied unless we win the national championship--on a regular basis.

Let's put this one to a vote.

Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

i'm going with no. because as the poll states, we're looking solely at the 2010-11 season. and we beat them once this year. overall, since we joined the conference? yes. but this year, no-not 'head and shoulders.'

Of course they are.

So what?  Does that mean we can't close the gap?  I don't know, but I'd sure like to see us try.

Of course they are.  It would be rather stupid to think otherwise. 

--They have dominated the Horizon for years (we have patted ourselves on the back for 4th place).
--They have dominated us head-to-head for years (we pat ourselves on the back for one home win after how many losses?)
--The have consistently competed and beaten top tier DI programs (we beat an average Washington team a couple years ago in a third rate postseason tournament.)
--They have consistent success in the NCAA over the last few years (we won 2 games just 13years ago).

I love Valpo basketball, but come on.  Of course Butler is head and shoulders better.  What is the case for saying they aren't?  Just because we beat them one time after years of losses.  That is a pretty stupid reason.

I guess we need a definition.  "Head and shoulders", to me implies what Kansas did to us.  Playing against a team where we were never in the game, were dominated in every phase and lost by 35.  That, is head and shoulders better.
Yes Butler has been better and may be better next year.  Think of it this way--we moved up  bunch when we went to the Horizon.  Without looking, and going from memory here, we have played Butler what--eight times? I can remember a few games that were decided by a handful of points and of course we won this year.

So was Butler head and shoulders better than VCU and Pittsburgh because they won?  It is the rhetoric that is bothersome to me.  A nonstop sense of finding something to hang around our neck.

Have they been a more successful program with national recognition?  Yep.  Is their program the pride of the Horizon?  Yep.  Did they lose twice to Milwaukee and to Youngstown State and us?  Yep. The difference is not much, one skill player I'd say--think Paul Carter or even Alec Brown.  If either had landed in our lap rather than UIC or Green Bay, do you think we would have been better than Butler?  Yep.

I agree with '72....it's the rhetoric that I disagree with....Is Butler presently better than VU, or anyone else in the league, certainly....but I question are they Head and Shoulders above us at this time.  Kansas was, Purdue probably....but I don't think Butler fits quite in that class.  If the question had been is Butler the "class" of the Horizon League, or is Butler better than anyone else in the Horizon League I would have voted yes....but as the question stands, I had to say no.

I think that Butler is better, but not significantly or "Head and Shoulders" above VU.  I think Kansas and Purdue are significantly better than VU.  I think that Butler has a better shot against Wisconsin than VU.

Quote from: covufan on March 22, 2011, 10:31:32 AM
I think that Butler is better, but not significantly or "Head and Shoulders" above VU.  I think Kansas and Purdue are significantly better than VU.  I think that Butler has a better shot against Wisconsin than VU.

OK, I can go along with that.  If Kansas is "Head and Shoulders" above, then no, Butler's not "Head and Shoulders" above us.

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 22, 2011, 11:13:18 AM
This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

I think the important question is: what does that mean?  There's a difference between a team that simply out-recruits us and out-plays us over an entire season and a team that has the deck stacked heavily in their favor.  8 times out of 10 if Kansas winks at a recruit, we have zero chance of getting them (and Butler has maybe a 10-20 % chance of getting them, which isn't that much better).  There's a difference between a team that has to play us at our place every year (and play the same conference schedule we do) and a team that can laugh at us when we ask to play them and get away with it.  Butler more often than not has had to bring their B+ game to beat us (and they generally do).  Kansas could beat us with their D game (as they did in 2001-2002).

This is the difference between a gap that can be scaled and a gap that can't be, at least not in my lifetime.  If you want to say that Butler is head and shoulders above us, then we are a grade school team compared to Kansas.  All that means to me is that we're fine in the Horizon League but would have no business being in the Big 12.  If we're fine in the HL, that means winning it is not an unrealistic goal.

In the end, that's the only thing that matters to me.

Quote from: valpofan56 on March 21, 2011, 11:46:47 PM
Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

If what you are saying is true, then only 17 D1 schools are better than Butler. No way, Jose.  I would say 50-60%, maybe, but not 95% of D1 programs. 

Quote from: vu72 on March 22, 2011, 07:03:12 AM
It is the rhetoric that is bothersome to me.  A nonstop sense of finding something to hang around our neck.

I couldn't agree more.  It's like asking your kid after he just pulled his grades up to A's and B's if it bothers him that Little Johnny Butler always gets straight A's.  "Son, would you say Little Johnny Butler is just a little smarter than you, or heads above smarter than you?"    

Quote from: valpospartan on March 22, 2011, 03:43:10 PM

Quote from: valpofan56 on March 21, 2011, 11:46:47 PM
Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

If what you are saying is true, then only 17 D1 schools are better than Butler. No way, Jose.  I would say 50-60%, maybe, but not 95% of D1 programs.  

Do you know how many teams have more Sweet Sixteen births since 2003 than Butler?

Five!

Those five teams are:

Duke - 7
Kansas - 6
Michigan State - 5
Connecticut - 5
North Carolina - 5

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 22, 2011, 11:13:18 AM
This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

So let's take a look at the last 18 years, as dcvalpo conveniently started his analysis just after a Valpo win. In 1994 we beat Butler by 17 and then in 1995 we lost by 2.  The next time we played was in 2005 when we lost by 3 and then lost by 13 in 2007.  So, from 1994 thru 2007 we played them Four times!!!!! and beat them once and lost two other games by a combined 5 points!  Wow!  Humiliating.

So let's focus on the real time in question, which is the last four years since we have been in the Horizon. We have lost by 8,3,13,8,17,5,17 and won by 6. But back to dcvalpo for a second, so I'll ignore the 1994 win and just look at dc valpo's last 17 years in which we have played Butler a total of 11 times. Of those 11 games we have played them to within 8 points 6  times,and beaten them once.  That leaves four games where we lost by more than 8.  2 were by 13 (not exactly dominating) and 2--yes 2 games in those aforementioned 17 years where we had bad losses, each by 17.  Of course we know that one of those was this year and we avenged that defeat with a win.

Now, over the course of those years we have had many humiliating defeats like by 26 to Purdue, or 24 and 27 to Duke or 35 to Kansas.  Those teams DOMINATED us and were clearly HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than us.  Think Cory Johnson and Erik Buggs.  If some of you want to think that Butler has been head and shoulders better than us, hey, live it up.  I'm hardly in la-la land when I say that Valpo has closed the gap very quickly and will be close if not be ahead of Butler next year. Look, 2 games tell us nothing anymore than Butler losing twice to Milwaukee, once by more than 17, makes Milwaukee head and shoulders better than Butler. You don't catch up to or pass a team that is head and shoulders better in just a few years.  We have.

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 22, 2011, 11:13:18 AM
This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

DC is right on here.  I guess I put Butler head and shoulders above based on what they do when it really counts.  I do not focus on rather mundane head-to-head games mid-conference season.  Rather when taking on the big boys or when a championship of some kind is on the line.  They don't make excuses or pride themselves on quality losses.  They win.  Until we can perform when it really counts, of course Butler is at another level.  That is a no-brainer. 

Look at it this way, if the question were posed to anyone outside of the Valpo community, how would they compare Valpo and Butler?  I'd say it's no contest.

Quote from: vu72 on March 22, 2011, 05:43:06 PM

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 22, 2011, 11:13:18 AM
This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

So let's take a look at the last 18 years, as dcvalpo conveniently started his analysis just after a Valpo win. In 1994 we beat Butler by 17 and then in 1995 we lost by 2.  The next time we played was in 2005 when we lost by 3 and then lost by 13 in 2007.  So, from 1994 thru 2007 we played them Four times!!!!! and beat them once and lost two other games by a combined 5 points!  Wow!  Humiliating.

So let's focus on the real time in question, which is the last four years since we have been in the Horizon. We have lost by 8,3,13,8,17,5,17 and won by 6. But back to dcvalpo for a second, so I'll ignore the 1994 win and just look at dc valpo's last 17 years in which we have played Butler a total of 11 times. Of those 11 games we have played them to within 8 points 6  times,and beaten them once.  That leaves four games where we lost by more than 8.  2 were by 13 (not exactly dominating) and 2--yes 2 games in those aforementioned 17 years where we had bad losses, each by 17.  Of course we know that one of those was this year and we avenged that defeat with a win.

Now, over the course of those years we have had many humiliating defeats like by 26 to Purdue, or 24 and 27 to Duke or 35 to Kansas.  Those teams DOMINATED us and were clearly HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than us.  Think Cory Johnson and Erik Buggs.  If some of you want to think that Butler has been head and shoulders better than us, hey, live it up.  I'm hardly in la-la land when I say that Valpo has closed the gap very quickly and will be close if not be ahead of Butler next year. Look, 2 games tell us nothing anymore than Butler losing twice to Milwaukee, once by more than 17, makes Milwaukee head and shoulders better than Butler. You don't catch up to or pass a team that is head and shoulders better in just a few years.  We have.

All I need to read here is that we have lost, and lost, and lost and lost to Butler over and over again.  And you think we have "closed the gap" on Butler?!  How?  We lose to them consistently, they have made a national mark in multiple tournaments, and we finished 4TH THIS SEASON. 

Oh well, I'm not arguing with you about this anymore...you have shown yourself to be an irrational optimist when it comes to VU.  And that's okay...I'm a huge fan too.  But I'm a realist.  And reality is Butler's program is far ahead of ours.

Quote from: cmack on March 22, 2011, 06:44:24 PM


Look at it this way, if the question were posed to anyone outside of the Valpo community, how would they compare Valpo and Butler?  I'd say it's no contest.

Yes, this is exactly right.

One could probably make the statement that Butler is "head and shoulders" above Purdue, IU, and Notre Dame.

Our banner at the top of this page displays a photo from probably 1998.  Butler is making yet another NCAA run.

lowposter

The question posed was--"is Butler head and shouldered better than Valpo".  Now, if the question was, "is Butler's post season resume better than Valpo's" then the answer is beyond obvious.  As pointed out by others, what they have done, and continue to do this year, is better than almost everyone.  Yes, in that regard they are head and shoulders better than us.

My posts dealt with how we matched up with them head to head, in games in which we both played because the nature of the question left no other choice relative to a response.  As I've shown, in head to head games with us, they clearly are not head and shoulders better.  Are they better?  Yes.

I would have to agree with those that say Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo.  We've beat them once in 17 years, this isn't even a rivalry yet (in my opinion both teams need to be winning about half the games to have a rivalry).  With that said, we are closing the gap (I would say Butler was head, shoulders, and knees above) which is very encouraging.

Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

Today's word is delusional boys and girls.

Seriously, this is a debate? It's not close, and unless something drastically changes, won't be for awhile. Can Valpo be competetive on the court with Butler for 2 games a year? Maybe. Can they be competetive with BCS schools and in the NCAA tournament? Um, unless I missed something, not likely.

In the last two years not only has Butler been to the National Championship game and the Sweet 16, they beat a number 1 seed to do it (twice) AND had already defeated Sweet 16 team Florida State...this year!

Come on people, look outside the two game bubble that is the Valpo vs. Butler matchup and see if these teams are even close?

Quote from: crusaderboy on March 23, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

Perhaps more embarassing is the fact that you used to be a newspaper writer and still composed your first sentence!

Quote from: vu72 on March 23, 2011, 12:25:16 PM

Quote from: crusaderboy on March 23, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

Perhaps more embarassing is the fact that you used to be a newspaper writer and still composed your first sentence!

Really? We're going there? Ugh. It's a message board...

Sorry, it was a joke.  I'm more than guilty of speed typing.

Why are we discussing this? Is there nothing else important to talk about? I don't have a real comment or concern about if Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo right now, or if we're just dandruff on their path to the NCAA Tourney. Seriously, we have recruiting concerns that worse than finding that one big that will help us dominate Butler for four years, but find a big that can help us move up the HL standings to compete for the regular season championship and get that shot at the NCAA auto-bid. Valpo basketball needs to find those players that can help make Butler a speed bump on the path to the NCAA Tourney, not just a speaking point on the message board of how much better they are than us right now.

Quote from: vu72 on March 23, 2011, 12:31:08 PM
Sorry, it was a joke.  I'm more than guilty of speed typing.

I am guilty of that as well. Sorry my joke meter is broken today.

please.

stream of consciousness vs. formal journalistic principles

does it bother you to know i speak grammatically incorrect all the time?

Let me refer you all back to the poll question " yes or no Butler is significantly better than Valpo?" Since significant is a definable word, maybe 90% or better have responded yes. The term "head and shoulders better" is different; it is a concept. Until we can define the concept, we can not address the issue. And so we babble on and on and on and on....

Semantics is not really a problem for me.  Use whatever word, analogy, concept, lingo, etc, that you want.   Butler is _____er than Valpo.  I am not trashing Valpo when I say that.  I am giving Butler their due credit.  They have done so much in the conference, in the tournament, in the non-conference, and yes even head-to-head.  They are that good of a program.

Anyone who answers "No" should have their head and shoulders examined.

Butler just made the Elite 8 for the second year in a row...I think that about sums up the differences. Can somebody lock this thread so we can stop embarrassing ourselves with this debate.

And if the Committee pulled its head out of an RPI rankings sheet and looked at whom teams beat and where, the BIGLEAST would get a few less bids for mediocre teams and the mid-majors a few more for Championship teams. Valpo beat an Elite Eight team shows how close we are, not the other way around about how far ahead the other team is.

Quote from: valpo84 on March 25, 2011, 05:53:58 AM
And if the Committee pulled its head out of an RPI rankings sheet and looked at whom teams beat and where, the BIGLEAST would get a few less bids for mediocre teams and the mid-majors a few more for Championship teams. Valpo beat an Elite Eight team shows how close we are, not the other way around about how far ahead the other team is.

I was really proud of our win.  Yet, I know that Howard Little hit two crazy threes he normally would never hit and we still had to scrape by in overtime.  The first time we played, it was more or less a shellacking by the Bulldogs.  I just can't point to one win (when considering the larger body of work) and say that says a lot about us.

Guys, Youngstown State also beat Butler.  Are we ready to talk about how close they are to Butler's level?  Truth is, Butler was in their roughest 5 game stretch in years and we happened to pick up a win during that time.  Let's not make it more than what it was.

And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

Even if Valpo goes 2-0 next year, Butler's still better. Please look outside the two game bubble. Butler is built to beat everybody, not just win Horizon League conference games. They've defeated Pitt, Wisconsin, Florida State, Michigan State, Washington State, Stanford, Northwestern, Ohio State, Syracuse, and Kansas State in the last two years. And Valpo vs.  BCS schools during that time? (crickets...)

Now, the current team. Has anybody else noticed that 6-7 Khyle Marshall is doing a really nice job when either Howard or Smith is out of the game? Sure is nice when you can rotate 6-7, 6-8, and 6-10 in your lineup and have an NBA quality guard (VU has that in Wood too) to go with it.

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 08:47:44 AM
And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

I really want you to be right in this conversation, believe me.  I hope we at some point can match Butler or overtake them.  We're not just that close to it right now.

Not sure why this thread exists.  Valpo and Butler split their two games, making it impossible to distinguish between the two programs.  Let's call it a draw and move on.

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 25, 2011, 12:00:03 PM

Not sure why this thread exists.  Valpo and Butler split their two games, making it impossible to distinguish between the two programs.  Let's call it a draw and move on.

Sarcasm?

I have an idea for the board admininstrators.  As part of the process to register for an account, ask the question, "Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?  Each person who says NO can be denied an account.  It will certainly raise the level of discussion on the board.  How bout it?

Now this is getting to the point of total ridiculousness....c'mon guys.....

Quote from: cmack on March 25, 2011, 05:07:05 PM
I have an idea for the board admininstrators.  As part of the process to register for an account, ask the question, "Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?  Each person who says NO can be denied an account.  It will certainly raise the level of discussion on the board.  How bout it?

everybody's entitled to their opinion. obviously yours is that freedom of speech is worthless... maybe the question that should be asked is 'how do you feel about freedom of speech?'  :crazy:

I was just joking.  I have never been much of an emoticoner. Although I will start adopting them for when I am being facetious.  :lol:

Quote from: cmack on March 25, 2011, 07:11:22 PM
I was just joking.  I have never been much of an emoticoner. Although I will start adopting them for when I am being facetious.  :lol:

Who really knows anymore, but it was pretty obvious to me, cmack, for what it's worth.

My tendency is to take posts like this (literally overflowing with hyperbole) as some form of satire, figuring if the person was serious, then they're not worth anything but the back of me.  So, by default, it all works for me ;)

Remember cmack "(SI)" or if you are going to be full throttle facetious "(FI)". (SI)

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 25, 2011, 10:31:25 AM

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 08:47:44 AM
And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

I really want you to be right in this conversation, believe me.  I hope we at some point can match Butler or overtake them.  We're not just that close to it right now.

I'll give this just one more try and then I'll leave you knuckleheads alone to bash Valpo all you want.  Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y.  Butler is better than Valpo.  They have been historically much better.  I define a team that is "head and shoulders" better as a team that we can't compete with or belong on the same court with and that just isn't the situation between Butler and Valpo.

I have submitted all the facts I can to show you all that we have been  very close to beating Butler and actually did this past year.  All I get in return is more baloney about even if we beat them twice next year that Butler is still better.

I'm done and may be done posting all together.  Why don't you "Butler is "head and shoulders" better than Valpo guys join the other guys on the Butler board?  We, in the reality zone will be fine here looking forward to more success and not holding Butler's past and current success over the heads of a team on the rise.  I hope Butler wins it all.  That has nothing to do with how we will matchup with them next year or how we matched up against them last year.

You won't see me post on this thread again.

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 25, 2011, 10:31:25 AM

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 08:47:44 AM
And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

I really want you to be right in this conversation, believe me.  I hope we at some point can match Butler or overtake them.  We're not just that close to it right now.

I'll give this just one more try and then I'll leave you knuckleheads alone to bash Valpo all you want.  Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y.  Butler is better than Valpo.  They have been historically much better.  I define a team that is "head and shoulders" better as a team that we can't compete with or belong on the same court with and that just isn't the situation between Butler and Valpo.

I'm done and may be done posting all together.  Why don't you "Butler is "head and shoulders" better than Valpo guys join the other guys on the Butler board?  We, in the reality zone will be fine here looking forward to more success and not holding Butler's past and current success over the heads of a team on the rise.  I hope Butler wins it all.  That has nothing to do with how we will matchup with them next year or how we matched up against them last year.

You won't see me post on this thread again.

So, since your definition of "head and shoulders better" leads you to feel Butler isn't head and shoulders better than Valpo, but others think they are, its "Valpo bashing?"

...and you may be done posting all together because someone feels Valpo isn't as good as Butler and by their view its not close? 

Come on man!  Relax!

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 25, 2011, 10:31:25 AM

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 08:47:44 AM
And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

.

I'll give this just one more try and then I'll leave you knuckleheads alone to bash Valpo all you want.  Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y.  Butler is better than Valpo.  They have been historically much better.  I define a team that is "head and shoulders" better as a team that we can't compete with or belong on the same court with and that just isn't the situation between Butler and Valpo.

I have submitted all the facts I can to show you all that we have been  very close to beating Butler and actually did this past year.  All I get in return is more baloney about even if we beat them twice next year that Butler is still better.

I'm done and may be done posting all together.  Why don't you "Butler is "head and shoulders" better than Valpo guys join the other guys on the Butler board?  We, in the reality zone will be fine here looking forward to more success and not holding Butler's past and current success over the heads of a team on the rise.  I hope Butler wins it all.  That has nothing to do with how we will matchup with them next year or how we matched up against them last year.

You won't see me post on this thread again.

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 25, 2011, 10:31:25 AM

Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2011, 08:47:44 AM
And when we beat them again next year it will be more luck.

I really want you to be right in this conversation, believe me.  I hope we at some point can match Butler or overtake them.  We're not just that close to it right now.

I'll give this just one more try and then I'll leave you knuckleheads alone to bash Valpo all you want.  Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y.  Butler is better than Valpo.  They have been historically much better.  I define a team that is "head and shoulders" better as a team that we can't compete with or belong on the same court with and that just isn't the situation between Butler and Valpo.

I have submitted all the facts I can to show you all that we have been  very close to beating Butler and actually did this past year.  All I get in return is more baloney about even if we beat them twice next year that Butler is still better.

I'm done and may be done posting all together.  Why don't you "Butler is "head and shoulders" better than Valpo guys join the other guys on the Butler board?  We, in the reality zone will be fine here looking forward to more success and not holding Butler's past and current success over the heads of a team on the rise.  I hope Butler wins it all.  That has nothing to do with how we will matchup with them next year or how we matched up against them last year.

You won't see me post on this thread again.

Really? We don't agree with you and you're done posting? I guess that's your choice.

Here's a good way to judge where Valpo is in comparison to Butler. If you asked 10 BCS D1 coaches who they'd rather play in a must win game (not a payout game), I wonder how many would choose to play Butler over Valpo. My guess? None. Of course some of that depends on matchups, to be sure, but in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team and who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Butler in a landslide. That's how I choose to judge. Also, Butler has a 87.5% winning percentage (IF I did the math correctly) against Valpo since joining the Horizon League. Nobody can debate the games were close, but in the end the "W" matters. A 12.5% winning percentage against an opponent is not close.

Also, just because I think Butler is better, doesn't mean I am trashing Valpo. They've been much improved this year and are at least heading in the right direction now

Quotebut in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team and who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Butler in a landslide.

I think you mean "but in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team, it would be Butler in a landslide, and if we could ask them who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Valpo in a landslide."

QuoteAlso, Butler has a 12.5% winning percentage (IF I did the math correctly) against Valpo since joining the Horizon League. Nobody can debate the games were close, but in the end the "W" matters. A 12.5% winning percentage against an opponent is not close.

Here, I think you meant 87.5% winning percentage.

Your welcome.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood editor.

Don't be ridiculous...none of us are Valpo bashing. The only person not in the "reality zone" is you.

i wish VU72 was right. i want us to be comparable to butler. but let's be real here. nobody remembers losers quite as well as winners are remembered. one exception will, of course, be last year's butler being the runner up to duke. gordon hayward's last second half court desperation shot is now on cbs's "road to the final four" intro, so it's already famous. anyway, no matter how many times we have come close, and have stayed in the game with butler, the truth is that we seldom win. head and shoulders better should be defined by wins, not by how close the score is. is florida state head and shoulders better than Nd because the won by a considerable margin? or vcu head and shoulders above purdue because they won by a lot? i don't think so. but i think how many head to head matchups occur is also important, because we all know morehead st. is not better than louisville. i think VU72 just might have a different definition of "head and shoulders better" than what we all see it as.

Quote from: StlVUFan on March 25, 2011, 10:18:35 PM

Quotebut in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team and who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Butler in a landslide.

I think you mean "but in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team, it would be Butler in a landslide, and if we could ask them who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Valpo in a landslide."

QuoteAlso, Butler has a 12.5% winning percentage (IF I did the math correctly) against Valpo since joining the Horizon League. Nobody can debate the games were close, but in the end the "W" matters. A 12.5% winning percentage against an opponent is not close.

Here, I think you meant 87.5% winning percentage.

Your welcome.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood editor.

Thank you fine sir

But the difficulty with the statement is over a span of years or right now. Butler is in the Final Four. To their credit, but Valpo is among a small handful of teams who beat them. In OT, in fact the only team that has beat them in OT this season v 5 wins. Head to head this year they split. Home and home, split. Next year, we don't know. Last five years, Butler owned us. The rest is opinion and conjecture. "head and shoulders" leads to debate. No one is going to win or lose. It's a gray question with "talk show" like responses. Butler was co-champs of the league by one game over us. We would have won tie breakers against them. All in all we had a great season that could have been better. Butler is capitalizing on its opportunities. We need to watch and learn. And, 1 bid for the Horizon with back to back final fours, 11 bids for the BigLeast. It would be nice if the Committee had given more teams from the Horizon a chance. Maybe this helps. Obviously, Valpo, UWM and YSU figured it out. And finally, the NCAA is about matchups. Butler has received a nice draw. Florida may have had more size and talent, but lacked coaching and discipline and desire. Pitt was big but plays a similar style to Butler. Butler has better shooters. Wisconsin was the best matchup because Wisc has no offense and a slow down style and players who could play at Horizon League or Big 10 schools. Has the Horizon become the Little 10/11/12? And frankly, the phone isn't ringing off the hook for home and homes/neutrals with Valpo since 1998. But maybe if the BigLeast teams did schedule a few, they might be better tested than the cupcakes and creampuffs they play at home to start the season, but for them it's all about the CASH, not the challenge.

Very well put, 84.

I agree with a lot of what 84 said...however, to see Butler had a good draw is a stretch.  Old Dominion, Pitt, Wisconsin, Florida is about as tough a draw as anyone has gone through.  "Pitt is big" is far underselling how good that team was this year.  You're downplaying what Butler has done here.  Look at it this way, Butler has beaten on average a 4 seed (9, 1, 4, 2)...can anyone else still playing boast that?

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 26, 2011, 09:28:32 PM
I agree with a lot of what 84 said...however, to see Butler had a good draw is a stretch.  Old Dominion, Pitt, Wisconsin, Florida is about as tough a draw as anyone has gone through.  "Pitt is big" is far underselling how good that team was this year.  You're downplaying what Butler has done here.  Look at it this way, Butler has beaten on average a 4 seed (9, 1, 4, 2)...can anyone else still playing boast that?

rhetorical question of course...what butler has accomplished, and many would agree this year's team has less talent than last year's, is just remarkable.

Quote from: valpo84 on March 26, 2011, 06:38:50 PM
And, 1 bid for the Horizon with back to back final fours, 11 bids for the BigLeast. It would be nice if the Committee had given more teams from the Horizon a chance. Maybe this helps. 

Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon to trash the Big East, maybe they should wait and see what UConn does in the next 2 games.  Seems to me those Big Least teams beat up on the Huskies pretty well.  And now they are taking out their frustrations on the tournament field.  Having the national champion in your conference makes for a successful season no matter what happens with everyone else.  Not guaranteeing it will happen, just saying that the story isn't written yet.

UCONN was a tale of two seasons. The beginning with suspensions, illness, injury, and the second season when they had everybody and put it together during the BigLeast Tourney and the Tourney. Are you saying one team justifies the other 10 bids? If so, then the corollary is there should have been at least 3 more Horizon League teams.

As to Butler's track, what they have done is truly a remarkable accomplishment, but had they had to play the draw VCU had would they have matched up as well. My point is match ups not average "seedings". VCU had USC, Georgetown, Purdue, and Florida State. Would Butler have beaten Purdue or Florida State? Butler didn't have to play OSU, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina or UCONN. Pitt was again this year vastly overrated. ODU was another mid-major. Wisconsin was the best 4 seed match up for Butler. But quite frankly and the pundits agreed the SE region was up for grabs and Pitt the first #1 seed to lose.

By the way CMack, I was trashing this year's BigLeast since early in the season (and previous seasons). And let's remember UCONN advanced by beating another BigLeast bubble team and a Steve Fisher coached team.

Quote from: valpo84 on March 27, 2011, 02:08:23 AM
Would Butler have beaten Purdue or Florida State?

I believe that Butler already beat FSU this year.  I know the "go to card" on this board is to minimize anything Butler accomplishes by declaring with 100% certainly that they would lose certain hypothetical games if those games were played instead of the real games that Butler is playing and winning.  Hard to dispute the potential outcome of these make believe games you bring up, so I won't try.  However, at least give Butler credit for the win over FSU in a game that was actually played.

In my opinion, the days of declaring hypothetical losses for Butler against ANYBODY were over last year.

I don't think anybody knows what Butler would have done against Purdue or anybody else that Butler might have played.  The last 8 tournament games they've played have been proceeded by sweeping pronouncements that included the phrase "there's no way" with respect to Butler beating whomever, and even their loss to Duke was proceeded by iron-clad guarantees that Duke would score at least 70 or 80 points.

Does the phrase "once bitten, twice shy" ring any bells for anyone???????

You look at Butler and physically they're a team that's similar to us. They don't have those freakishly athletics players you see on the Power 6 conference teams. You could argue that Butler is better than us physically but it's not "head and shoulders" better. At least compared to the difference between us and Kansas.

Where Butler is "head and shoulders" better than us, and the rest of the NCAA, is the intangible side of the game. The desire to win. To never give up. To make the most of the physical talent they have. You could make the argument that the intangibles is Valpo's biggest weakness at this point.

Look at Butler's season toward the end of January. They lose in OT to Milwaukee and us and then go to YSU and lose a heartbreaker. They were in a complete tailspin but somehow regrouped and haven't lost since. Who knows what was said to them, but it worked. Milwaukee had a similar situation, regrouping after getting blown out and going on a winning streak to end the season.


Compare that to Valpo's season. We lose a tough game in Milwaukee and follow it up with a heartbreaker loss to Green Bay. What happens next? We roll over and die and get blown out by Loyola. Instead of bouncing back, we give up on the season.

I'm not sure if you can teach the intangibles or they just come naturally with some players. Maybe Butler just recruits the right type of guys. Either way, that's what makes Buter "head and shoulders" better than us.

Quote from: mj on March 27, 2011, 12:09:04 PM
You look at Butler and physically they're a team that's similar to us. They don't have those freakishly athletics players you see on the Power 6 conference teams. You could argue that Butler is better than us physically but it's not "head and shoulders" better. At least compared to the difference between us and Kansas.

Where Butler is "head and shoulders" better than us, and the rest of the NCAA, is the intangible side of the game. The desire to win. To never give up. To make the most of the physical talent they have. You could make the argument that the intangibles is Valpo's biggest weakness at this point.

Look at Butler's season toward the end of January. They lose in OT to Milwaukee and us and then go to YSU and lose a heartbreaker. They were in a complete tailspin but somehow regrouped and haven't lost since. Who knows what was said to them, but it worked. Milwaukee had a similar situation, regrouping after getting blown out and going on a winning streak to end the season.


Compare that to Valpo's season. We lose a tough game in Milwaukee and follow it up with a heartbreaker loss to Green Bay. What happens next? We roll over and die and get blown out by Loyola. Instead of bouncing back, we give up on the season.

I'm not sure if you can teach the intangibles or they just come naturally with some players. Maybe Butler just recruits the right type of guys. Either way, that's what makes Buter "head and shoulders" better than us.

Amen.

Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

Quote from: cmack on March 27, 2011, 06:44:43 PM
Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions

Quote from: rlh on March 27, 2011, 08:20:45 PM
AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions

Rlh, for one fleeting moment, we may have found something to agree on.

I guess VCU is head and shoulders (of a giant, no less) ahead of us as they beat Kansas

And being blown out by Valpo gets you a head coaching job in the SEC. Congrats Cuonzo Martin on being hired at Tennessee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533)

I haven't seen this mentioned, but for the second straight year, Butler has beaten three consecutive top four seeds to reach the final four. I would bet no team has ever done it in back to back seasons, and doubt it will ever happen back to back again in our lifetime. Another incredible stat: All four of their tournament wins this season have come against teams in the top 25 of the RPI, with the last three teams in the top 15. I'm one Valpoite that can't imagine saying anything that would remotely come across as negative toward Butler, after they've accomplished one of the most amazing college basketball accomplishments we may ever see.

Quote from: rlh on March 27, 2011, 08:20:45 PM

Quote from: cmack on March 27, 2011, 06:44:43 PM
Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions  SDSs

The further we go with this the more adult the conversation has become. If you remember in mid January the words we were debating in reference to the VU-Butler gap were "not remotely close";which was a quote from some Butler fan or official.

Butler has today a far better program than Valpo. Few will argue. Most of the problem has been with the selection of words used to describe this gap. Proper wording is always important.

Most of us played a little basketball when we were younger and from that perspective our perceptions will often be quite similar. So just for the fun of it, I'd like for 4 or 5 of you to slip on your sneakers, your 18 or 19 year old bodies, grab a basketball and jump in the car. Its summer and we are headed across  town or to the next town over to find a little competition.

So lets says that we have pretty much battled our opponentes to a draw when at the end of game 2 their top gun states with an air of disdain that our team is not remotely close to being as good their bunch, that they are in fact "head and shoulders better" and that  the rubber match needs to have some money riding on it. Real quick there would be a war in progress that would be pretty much unemcumbered by rules. There would be holds,elbows, knees, trips, leaning and pushing, you know-"bad blood". And in that state of mind a guy would have to be crazy to stand in the lane to try to take a charge knowing that the intent of the man comeing towards him is to run right through him.

I think this kind of bad blood mentality is the reason why Butler was on the ropes in February. They took everyones best shot, and from the 2 seed won the tournement and have moved on again to the final 4. I think that the Butler level of success has challenged the league to step foreward with them, and the league has begun to respond. Part of Butlers improvement this year is also due to the leagues improvement. Go Butler! Maybe having a Horizon League national champion can help us find a fulltime center?

Quote from: valpo84 on March 28, 2011, 12:50:35 AM
And being blown out by Valpo gets you a head coaching job in the SEC. Congrats Cuonzo Martin on being hired at Tennessee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533)

Getting beat by 20 points by Loyola at home doesn't get you a job anywhere either but I'm sure Tennessee didn't choose Cuonzo Martin because he lost to Valpo in one game. Missouri State did win the MVC regular season title and made it to the championship game of the MVC tourney in St. Louis, losing to Indiana State.

After reading this thread, I recall the discussion about whether or not it was appropriate for Valpo fans to rush the court after the victory over Butler.  I haven't checked back on the comments, but I would like to think that each poster who believes that Butler is head and shoulders better than Valpo would have said, "This was a great accomplishment, the type of win that merits rushing the floor."

I had no problem with the students rushing the floor.  They beat the national runner-up.  I see Butler as "national runner-up," not simply "in-state rival."

Maybe I'm missing something here.  What if the Horizon is closer to the CAA than we think?  The CAA (following the George Mason run) has started to get 2-3 teams in a year which allows them to have a chance for more respect/deeper runs (case in point---VCU this season, GMU in 2006).  Perhaps following this Butler run, the Horizon garners more respect and more teams get an opportunity to compete.

I still maintain that Butler is currently head and shoulders above Valpo.  However, if the Horizon begins to receive the respect it deserves, maybe Valpo would have a few more opportunities to "catch up" by making another tournament run.

Quote from: humbleopinion on March 28, 2011, 06:25:19 AM
After reading this thread, I recall the discussion about whether or not it was appropriate for Valpo fans to rush the court after the victory over Butler.  I haven't checked back on the comments, but I would like to think that each poster who believes that Butler is head and shoulders better than Valpo would have said, "This was a great accomplishment, the type of win that merits rushing the floor."

I'm sorry but I still cringed when the students rushed the court. I think that is reserved for beating #1 in the country or winning some kind of championship on a last second shot..  I suppose a few other scenarios as well that I haven't thought about, but not for beating a 4th place team mid-season.

Quote from: chef on March 28, 2011, 02:09:12 AM
I haven't seen this mentioned, but for the second straight year, Butler has beaten three consecutive top four seeds to reach the final four. I would bet no team has ever done it in back to back seasons, and doubt it will ever happen back to back again in our lifetime. Another incredible stat: All four of their tournament wins this season have come against teams in the top 25 of the RPI, with the last three teams in the top 15. I'm one Valpoite that can't imagine saying anything that would remotely come across as negative toward Butler, after they've accomplished one of the most amazing college basketball accomplishments we may ever see.

I think last year they beat a 12, a 13, then a 1, and a 2 to get to the final four.  This year was indeed a 1, then 4, then 2.

As for the rest of your post, I agree wholeheartedly.

I suspect all this came from a very tantalizing look back at February.  It's sort of like you're some middling runner who just happens to be leading Frank Shorter coming down the stretch, and you stumble over a rock and lose your momentum.  The fact that Frank Shorter (have I got the name right??? ;) ) is clearly the better runner gets clouded in your mind because "you had him" and you let the lead slip through your fingers.

I don't think it's wildly insane to entertain the idea of questioning whether Butler is head-and-shoulders above Valpo.  It's just that when you think rationally about it, the evidence is overwhelming against it.

I return once again to a simple question: so what if they are?  Are we going to get drummed out of the HL because of it?  Should Homer get fired because of it?  Does anybody have a crystal ball that says we'll never reach their level -- ever???

I'd say the answer to each question is a flat NO.

As a Valpo fan, I'm feeling not the least bit insecure about the idea that Butler is head-and-shoulders above us.  I think it gives us a worthy goal to shoot for, one that is not beyond our reach.

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 28, 2011, 10:25:02 AM
I had no problem with the students rushing the floor.  They beat the national runner-up.  I see Butler as "national runner-up," not simply "in-state rival."

More importantly, Butler had no problem with it.  Neither do I.  They are still the standard bearer.

What makes this discussion interesting is that in a lot a ways, people can argue that there isn't much difference between the two teams/programs.  Horizon league record this year, competitiveness in head-to-head games, individual awards all point to teams/programs that are similar.  However, when you compare performance against the best teams on the biggest stage, there's absolutely no comparison in terms of achievement.  I think that's probably where a lot of the frustration comes from ... it's easy to see why Kansas/Duke/UNC are better than Valpo, but it's not apparent to the naked eye why Butler is (or at least has accomplished more.)

Whatever the case, I think you guys should be proud of what Valpo's team accomplished this year and I think you're headed in the right direction.  If you, along with Milwaukee, CSU and WSU start to view an NCAA at-large bid a a realistic possibility, the league has the potential to be a consistent multi-bid league.

Great point.

At some point in time, the HL needs to be what CAA did this year...at large selections.

At some point in time, the NCAA selection committee needs to get a bit more investigative about their work and select better "teams" not "teams from power conferences."

Butler and VCU in the Final Four...you gotta love it.

lowposter

cmack, if Butler wins the title, can we call it a retro-rushing of the court as Butler should have been ranked #1? (SI). For bbtds, my post was clearly SI. This Board has become very literal lately.

Quote from: valpo84 on March 28, 2011, 09:15:21 PM
cmack, if Butler wins the title, can we call it a retro-rushing of the court as Butler should have been ranked #1? (SI). For bbtds, my post was clearly SI. This Board has become very literal lately.

i think if butler wins it all that makes them number 1, since they are the champions. but of course, as always, the stupid AP polls and espn polls will not make them a preseason number 1 next year. that is always given to power conference teams.

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 28, 2011, 01:24:59 PM
However, when you compare performance against the best teams on the biggest stage, there's absolutely no comparison in terms of achievement.  I think that's probably where a lot of the frustration comes from ... it's easy to see why Kansas/Duke/UNC are better than Valpo, but it's not apparent to the naked eye why Butler is (or at least has accomplished more.)

Rock solid point there.  I don't remember, but I'll bet anything no one gave Butler a prayer of coming close to beating Tennessee in 2008 (for that matter, Florida in 2007 probably as well).  Add to that Syracuse, KSU, MSU, and Duke in 2010, Pitt, Wisconsin, and Florida in 2011.  The last 9 NCAA tourney matchups against Big 6 powers have all been predicted not only as losses for Butler, but smackdowns ("There's NO WAY Butler .... blah, blah, blah").  I was convinced last year.  This year's evidence is merely icing on the cake.  Heck, I haven't even mentioned winning the Great Alaska Shootout and the Preseason NIT which happened in 2007.

The *only* reliable way of identifying the gap between *any* team and Butler is to let them play each other and record the result.  Even then, it's a sample size of 1.  For crying out loud, all these whining pundits and Big 6 fanbases who claim bitterly that if they play 20 times they win 19 of them are also full of it.  *No one* even knows if *that* is true until it actually happens.

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should.  Absent a renaissance of some sort, they are doomed to depart any confrontation with the likes of Butler shaking their heads, unable to fathom what just happened, desperately grasping for something to rationalize the mystery away.

And I myself am rationalizing just by trying to explain it somehow, but I have strayed from the main topic, which is: I couldn't agree more that on the big stage there is a significant gap between Valpo and Butler, just as there's a significant gap between just about every mid-major and Butler.  We're in very large company.  I'd say there's still a significant gap between Butler and the rest off the HL.  Even Milwaukee, CSU, WSU, Detroit, along with Valpo are all eating Butler's dust at this point.

But!!!  If we're just talking about one weekend in December plus all of January and February, all that goes out the window, at least for the teams I just mentioned.  Getting on that big stage more often is the key to closing the gap, and we all have it within our reach to win the auto-bid.  There is a recipe for success here.  That's what we should be focusing on.

Quote from: StlVUFan on March 29, 2011, 12:03:51 PM

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should. 
focusing on.

Are you saying Duke plays NBA-style basketball?  That is definitely not the program I would have used to make that argument.  Or, are you just saying they have NBA-level talent?

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 29, 2011, 04:11:24 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on March 29, 2011, 12:03:51 PM

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should. 
focusing on.

Are you saying Duke plays NBA-style basketball?  That is definitely not the program I would have used to make that argument.  Or, are you just saying they have NBA-level talent?

If Duke is an exception, then I stand corrected.  I don't pretend to know what NBA-style basketball is, since I have no use for the NBA as a fan.  I have seen this very argument that I was trying to capture made over at Rush the Court or Ballin' is a Habit or somewhere recently.  I'm just playing around with ideas here.

Maybe Duke was more like Butler than they were like the NBA, I don't know.  And it's a generalization, which are always prone to some error.

I would say that Duke *does* fall into the category of programs that have McDonald's All-Americans lined up at their doorstep, begging to play for them, and they do send a bunch of guys to the NBA on a regular basis (I don't mean every year they send a bunch of guys, but, say, over any given 4-year period).

I think Duke is much more similar to Butler than not.

But your description is spot on.  Make the comparison between just about any of the Big East teams and Butler.  I watched my first NBA game last weekend (Bulls) and was pleasantly surprized in the development of the game.  The college game is much more entertaining to me, but the NBA (or perhaps Derrick Rose) is certainly providing a better product than in the past.

Butler currently has the ability to find the very good high school players that continue to develop at the next level.  Duke has the fully developed players (McDonalds AA) enrolling.  Who would you rather have....Matt Howard or one of the Plumlees?  Sheldon Mack or Nolan Smith?  Gordan Hayword or Kyle Slingler?  Throw in a Hahn, Veasley, Van Zandt, Norrad, and Smith who are all just a level or two below the McDonalds levels, but are VERY SOUND players that can each do something quite well...and you have a solid program.  Check the egos at the door please.

How about 4 years ago?  No contest.  What will be interesting to see is as the major Butler talent leaves, will it be replaced at the same level (or higher)?  Marshall seems to exhibit a high level.  One could say he is an improvement over Veasley (hate to say that...he was a player).  Smith has made major contributions and allowed Howard to stay on the floor much longer.  But, the replacement of Howard and Mack will be a considerable task. 

One cannot discount the high level of defense played by Butler.   Nothing is easy against them, particularly in March and April.

As I was thinking about it, in the main, many of the Butler / Valpo games have been competitive -- hence it is difficult for me to say they are dramatically better than Valpo.

We all applaud Butler for doing so well in the tournament.  This raises the profile of the league for sure, and increases the probability of becoming a multi-bid conference.  It has got to help recruiting as well, as it is easier to say that "We will play Butler twice next year" and "By the way, we went 1-1 against them this year." 

The other thing is that Butler has guys who have played together for quite some time -- some of the other teams in the tournament are filled with younger, less experienced players.  While they may have more pure talent (see Kentucky, for example), there is something to be said for experience in a variety of settings.

Quote from: lowposter on March 30, 2011, 07:49:22 AM


Butler currently has the ability to find the very good high school players that continue to develop at the next level.  Duke has the fully developed players (McDonalds AA) enrolling.  Who would you rather have....Matt Howard or one of the Plumlees?  Sheldon Mack or Nolan Smith?  Gordan Hayword or Kyle Slingler?  Throw in a Hahn, Veasley, Van Zandt, Norrad, and Smith who are all just a level or two below the McDonalds levels, but are VERY SOUND players that can each do something quite well...and you have a solid program.  Check the egos at the door please.

Not sure I completely agree.  The media may push Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler, et al as the top stars in the nation, but why would I necessarily take them over Howard and Mack?  On the big stage, when Butler plays great teams, those two have been All-Americans.  I think if you put those guys on a Duke, Kentucky, UConn, etc they are stars.  Forget the names on the jerseys and the familiarity for a second---who has been better than Mack in this tournament?  The guys you know by first names---Kemba and Jimmer.  That's about it.  Am I supposed to write that off as 4 good games (well, really 10 considering last year)?

Now, I completely agree with you when it comes to the roleplayers.  Butler's 3-12 pale in comparison to the 3-12 for a Duke or Kansas.  That is where you have to give credit to the system and the coach.

Just to make myself clear...I will take Howard/Mack over Plumlee/Smith now.

But four years ago? 

I think Butler caught lightning in a bottle again with Marshall.  He was obviously motivated that his home state university (Florida) didnt even recruit him. 

Here is the deal...the majors are recruiting early and often the young men as 15 / 16 year olds.  Often these young men are physically developed and are head and shoulders above the competition.  Sometimes the growth and development of others skyrocket and these young men become attractive later.  I think Butler is expert at recognizing these men.  It would be interesting to compare who they offer scholarships to and at what stage in their high school careers.

AAU season is starting up.  The spring session has just begun.  Go plunk down $10 at a tournament and check out the talent.  If you really want to see a meat market, go in July when the coaches are allowed to observe.  It is actually pretty good level of basketball.  The sideshows and drama off court are often just as interesting.

lowposter

They are recruiting them much younger than 15/16 years old.  New rules allow schools to recruit kids as young as 12/13 (7th graders), which I think is ridiculous.  Completely agree with Marshall, I think he is going to have a breakout year next season for Butler.

Quote from: lowposter on March 30, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
Just to make myself clear...I will take Howard/Mack over Plumlee/Smith now.

But four years ago? 

I think Butler caught lightning in a bottle again with Marshall.  He was obviously motivated that his home state university (Florida) didnt even recruit him. 

Here is the deal...the majors are recruiting early and often the young men as 15 / 16 year olds.  Often these young men are physically developed and are head and shoulders above the competition.  Sometimes the growth and development of others skyrocket and these young men become attractive later.  I think Butler is expert at recognizing these men.  It would be interesting to compare who they offer scholarships to and at what stage in their high school careers.

AAU season is starting up.  The spring session has just begun.  Go plunk down $10 at a tournament and check out the talent.  If you really want to see a meat market, go in July when the coaches are allowed to observe.  It is actually pretty good level of basketball.  The sideshows and drama off court are often just as interesting.

lowposter

Quote from: sectionee on March 31, 2011, 08:22:02 AM
They are recruiting them much younger than 15/16 years old.  New rules allow schools to recruit kids as young as 12/13 (7th graders), which I think is ridiculous.  Completely agree with Marshall, I think he is going to have a breakout year next season for Butler.

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

how did we not recruit hayward? i'm sure the coaching staff regrets that.

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

Tha's fair.  Butler certainly has benefited from getting guys who could have gone to larger schools (Hayward, Howard, Mack), but chose Butler instead.

Disrespecting/dismissing the only 1st round draft choice in the history of the Butler program: 

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who)

Just one of hundreds of examples from the Butler board that provide proof positive that trashing your own players and former players does not negatively affect recruiting.  Otherwise, Butler would have the worst program in college basketball. 

Quote from: wh on April 01, 2011, 08:02:32 PM
Disrespecting/dismissing the only 1st round draft choice in the history of the Butler program: 

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who (http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who)

Just one of hundreds of examples from the Butler board that provide proof positive that trashing your own players and former players does not negatively affect recruiting.  Otherwise, Butler would have the worst program in college basketball. 

Wow! You read that as trashing Gordon Hayward? I guess that goes to show how people interpret things differently. All I read was that the team last year was more than just Hayward carrying the team. I personally thought it was fine.

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

That thread did seem to be bashing Gordon a little bit...or at least being very dismissive of what he brought to the program.

Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

Umm...where to begin here...

Brownsburg played Marion for the 4A state title, where Hayward did hit the game winning shot.
Washington actually won the 3A title that year.

Quote from: dcvalpo on April 02, 2011, 10:52:33 AM
That thread did seem to be bashing Gordon a little bit...or at least being very dismissive of what he brought to the program.

One guy questioned whether he got too much credit.  The rest of it was complimentary of the Butler Way.

Hardly what I'd call "very dismissive".

Anyone here recall that x-over move he made his freshman year at the ARC and just froze Urule?

That was when I knew he was the real deal. 

I agree with Milanmiracle...it was probably a good deal for him to mix it up in the summer and play a little tennis.  As I recall he was a pretty decent guard in middle school and early HS, then grew about 8 inches and had skills.  Funny tho, isnt it...how he was 6'9" his soph year at Butler but only measured out at 6'6 1/2" at NBA?

Wish he would have stayed around another year or two.  He was a joy to watch.  How did he do this year in the NBA?

Lowposter

Quote from: lowposter on April 02, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
Anyone here recall that x-over move he made his freshman year at the ARC and just froze Urule?

That was when I knew he was the real deal. 

I agree with Milanmiracle...it was probably a good deal for him to mix it up in the summer and play a little tennis.  As I recall he was a pretty decent guard in middle school and early HS, then grew about 8 inches and had skills.  Funny tho, isnt it...how he was 6'9" his soph year at Butler but only measured out at 6'6 1/2" at NBA?

Wish he would have stayed around another year or two.  He was a joy to watch.  How did he do this year in the NBA?

Lowposter

he has been ok in the nba. he plays a role on the jazz. he gets pretty good minutes most games from what i understand, and has some scoring. single figures mostly but he may get close to 10 or around it. in my opinion he has become a pretty solid rookie and his nba career should turn out to be pretty productive in a few years.

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 02, 2011, 11:35:04 AM

Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

Umm...where to begin here...

Brownsburg played Marion for the 4A state title, where Hayward did hit the game winning shot.
Washington actually won the 3A title that year.

Sorry, bad memory recall. Was it Zeller that also hit a game winning shot in the 3A championship game that same year? I seem to remember him being involved. The Zeller that went to Notre Dame I believe.

Guys, just think....it really could be us playing in the national title game.  That is roughly the level we are at, given our victory over Butler this season.

A few bounces go our way and it's US not BUTLER playing for the title.

ha!

But seriously, congrats Butler, and thank you for earning us a few more dollars by advancing!

Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2011, 03:44:42 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 02, 2011, 11:35:04 AM

Quote from: bbtds on April 02, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 31, 2011, 08:45:41 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on March 31, 2011, 06:30:33 PMAnd some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

Umm...where to begin here...

Brownsburg played Marion for the 4A state title, where Hayward did hit the game winning shot.
Washington actually won the 3A title that year.

Sorry, bad memory recall. Was it Zeller that also hit a game winning shot in the 3A championship game that same year? I seem to remember him being involved. The Zeller that went to Notre Dame I believe.

Luke Zeller (Notre Dame) did hit a game winning shot for Washington, but it wasn't the same year as Heywards. In fact, Luke won the Mr. Basketball that year, basically because of that shot. That was all the way back in 2005. Mr Basketball  should have gone to Josh McRoberts (I think)

My choice for that year was the guard from Richmond that played at Marquette and beat VU with a three pointer....I forget his name, but he was tough.

lowposter

Quote from: lowposter on April 02, 2011, 10:58:16 PM
My choice for that year was the guard from Richmond that played at Marquette and beat VU with a three pointer....I forget his name, but he was tough.

lowposter

dominic james. that video is on youtube. painful to watch!

Quote from: DMvalpo18 on April 02, 2011, 11:03:43 PM

Quote from: lowposter on April 02, 2011, 10:58:16 PM
My choice for that year was the guard from Richmond that played at Marquette and beat VU with a three pointer....I forget his name, but he was tough.

lowposter

dominic james. that video is on youtube. painful to watch!

still in the top 3 of the most exciting games i've been to. and that was my freshman year.

Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 02, 2011, 11:14:46 PM

Quote from: DMvalpo18 on April 02, 2011, 11:03:43 PM

Quote from: lowposter on April 02, 2011, 10:58:16 PM
My choice for that year was the guard from Richmond that played at Marquette and beat VU with a three pointer....I forget his name, but he was tough.

lowposter

dominic james. that video is on youtube. painful to watch!

still in the top 3 of the most exciting games i've been to. and that was my freshman year.

I still recall sitting a few rows behind a trio of Marquette fans, one of whom was reporting back to their man fan message board at every time out, at one point "complaining" about having to play a team that practices in the same gym it plays its games in.  Jarryd Lloyd on the left wing for 3 to tie the score before James broke our hearts.  I found the overheard comment hysterical.

I also remember a couple of days later running into a number of Butler fans at the Bracketbuster return game who said they were rooting for us to beat Marquette.

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 02, 2011, 11:33:04 PM

Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 02, 2011, 11:14:46 PM

Quote from: DMvalpo18 on April 02, 2011, 11:03:43 PM

Quote from: lowposter on April 02, 2011, 10:58:16 PM
My choice for that year was the guard from Richmond that played at Marquette and beat VU with a three pointer....I forget his name, but he was tough.

lowposter

dominic james. that video is on youtube. painful to watch!

still in the top 3 of the most exciting games i've been to. and that was my freshman year.

I still recall sitting a few rows behind a trio of Marquette fans, one of whom was reporting back to their man fan message board at every time out, at one point "complaining" about having to play a team that practices in the same gym it plays its games in.  Jarryd Lloyd on the left wing for 3 to tie the score before James broke our hearts.  I found the overheard comment hysterical.

I also remember a couple of days later running into a number of Butler fans at the Bracketbuster return game who said they were rooting for us to beat Marquette.

i wish we could have beaten them! that would have shut up their fans.

according to wilbon and kornheiser on pti today, nobody can name another school in the horizon league besides butler. does that make them "head and shoulders better?"

Wilbon named all of them last week, but then he lived in Chicago.  Not sure why he couldn't today

Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 04, 2011, 04:34:53 PM
according to wilbon and kornheiser on pti today, nobody can name another school in the horizon league besides butler. does that make them "head and shoulders better?"

I don't know about that, but it does provide more evidence that those who think other HL teams are receiving recruiting crumbs off the Butler table are kidding themselves.  Around the country, this is not a Horizon League story - it's a Butler story, plain and simple.  Nobody cares about the Horizon League, any more than it cared about Conference USA when Memphis was in its height of glory under Calapari.  As far as the national sports media is concerned, Butler is Michael Jackson.  The Horizon League is Gary, Indiana. 

Quote from: rlh on April 04, 2011, 05:20:04 PM
Wilbon named all of them last week, but then he lived in Chicago.  Not sure why he couldn't today

i think the statement was more to make a point, than anything else. the problem is that it makes the rest of the country seem to think the rest of the conference is worthless, when we're anything but.

I agree.  The story to the nation is Butler, not the Horizon League.  Interesting, because when Northern Iowa made their run, they kept talking about the Missouri Valley League and how good it was.  Until we start getting more than one team in the tournament, we will always be Butler and the other guys in the national media

Proven tonight that they are not better than us.

Quote from: dcvalpo on April 04, 2011, 10:35:17 PM
Proven tonight that they are not better than us.

Tonight they weren't.

This is sarcasm, no?

Quote from: dcvalpo on April 04, 2011, 10:35:17 PM
Proven tonight that they are not better than us.

I do like to be optimistic, but in no reality would I imagine this year's Valpo squad in the national title game. Butler... easily plausible, and given their close victories I think they earned it. That, and I don't understand how losing to UCONN means that we are better than Butler.

Quote from: KL31NY on April 05, 2011, 12:16:21 AM

Quote from: dcvalpo on April 04, 2011, 10:35:17 PM
Proven tonight that they are not better than us.

I do like to be optimistic, but in no reality would I imagine this year's Valpo squad in the national title game. Butler... easily plausible, and given their close victories I think they earned it. That, and I don't understand how losing to UCONN means that we are better than Butler.

Well, they said that Butler is not better than Valpo, not Valpo is better than Butler.

But other than that, I'm right there with ya.

The good news for the conference is of course that once again Butler made us a lot of money.  Maybe enough to get a guaranteed game at the ARC, who knows.

Clearly, as the NCAA tourney always shows, playing on a neutral court with neutral fans generally favors the mid-major or at least levels the playing field to some extent.  Valpo just hasn't had many chances to play a major on a neutral court and when we have had a chance--like at the United Center--it ends up being against the No. 1 team in the country.  We need to schedule "mid-majors" and I don't mean Missouri State.  I mean md-level major conference teams.  Then we will have a chance and progress from there.

As for last night, Butler should indeed be proud.  Another great and memorable run.  They should take heart from the fact that they are in good company when it comes to teams losing two championship games in a row.  So if my memory is still functioning I believe that Ohio State had the same fate.

Jerry Lucus, John Havlichek, Bob Knight, Ron Noel et al won the Championship in 1960, but then lost in 1961 and 1962 to Cincinnati, who was led by Ron Bonham, who just happened to be a former Mr. Basketball from Indiana!!  Someone can check my facts, but that is my recollection.  Anyway, my hats off to the Bulldogs, an amazing  run.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

BUT, now that Butler's run is over and Howard is graduating, let's take Butler down.  Just because I think right now they are head and shoulders better doesn't mean that we can't close that gap next year.

Interesting article if people didn't see it on the CAA's success (and comparisons to Horizon) and its depth. One of the key points to the CAA's multiple bids was wins out of conference. Query whether their scheduling will improve because of these successes or be hampered because teams from ACC and other conferences won't want to schedule them anymore. Preseason tourneys will continue to be the best opportunities to get these kinds of games or to try to get guaranteed games on the road against middle of the pack BCS teams. Valpo might want to look for a westward trip (UCLAs, USCs, California/Stanford) in order to try to get some of those games. Even a Gonzaga/Washington/Wash State/Utah/Utah State trip could be beneficial. Avoid BYU because that place is a no man's land for road teams. Or even a New Mexico/NMSt trip could be helpful. Isn't there a certain former IU guy down there somewhere?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/6276480/caa-improve-depth-take-step (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/6276480/caa-improve-depth-take-step)

QuoteValpo might want to look for a westward trip (UCLAs, USCs, California/Stanford) in order to try to get some of those games. Even a Gonzaga/Washington/Wash State/Utah/Utah State trip could be beneficial. Avoid BYU because that place is a no man's land for road teams. Or even a New Mexico/NMSt trip could be helpful. Isn't there a certain former IU guy down there somewhere?

I've been hoping for a westward trip for awhile now. There's a number of teams in Southern California alone that might make a good matchup. Hopefully we could get one game with a team like UCLA or USC and one with a good midmajor like Long Beach State. Valpo could have some sort of a "homecoming west" type gathering and give westcoast alumni an opportunity to watch Valpo basketball in person. Plus, maybe it could be a way to bring westcoast talent to Valpo. I'd rather see that kind of roadtrip, than bringing Ball State and IPFW into the ARC again. 

Quote from: mj on April 07, 2011, 09:26:29 PM

QuoteValpo might want to look for a westward trip (UCLAs, USCs, California/Stanford) in order to try to get some of those games. Even a Gonzaga/Washington/Wash State/Utah/Utah State trip could be beneficial. Avoid BYU because that place is a no man's land for road teams. Or even a New Mexico/NMSt trip could be helpful. Isn't there a certain former IU guy down there somewhere?

I've been hoping for a westward trip for awhile now. There's a number of teams in Southern California alone that might make a good matchup. Hopefully we could get one game with a team like UCLA or USC and one with a good midmajor like Long Beach State. Valpo could have some sort of a "homecoming west" type gathering and give westcoast alumni an opportunity to watch Valpo basketball in person. Plus, maybe it could be a way to bring westcoast talent to Valpo. I'd rather see that kind of roadtrip, than bringing Ball State and IPFW into the ARC again. 

seconded. i completely agree. the only drawback is the travel involved. though perhaps this could be dealt with by trying to set up a home and home agreement.

The west coast trip could work, if you could get that west coast team to want to come to the Midwest in November or December, when the snow might fall...

QuoteThe west coast trip could work, if you could get that west coast team to want to come to the Midwest in November or December, when the snow might fall...

I'm of the mindset that Valpo should be willing to go on the road for the next few years and play some of the big boys without the guarantee of a return game. If we want to get back into the discussion of a top mid-major, we need to start scheduling better opponents. And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against. I'd gladly trade a few of those home games against PNC and IU Northwest for road games against good teams. 

Considering the complexity of scheduling, we could probably turn this discussion into a new thread.

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

from a personal benefit, i'd like to see them head north to minot state in the next couple years (right typhoon?). and yes, i know they're not d1. i just want to see them play in person some.

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 08, 2011, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 08, 2011, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 09, 2011, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 08, 2011, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 09, 2011, 04:43:35 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 09, 2011, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 08, 2011, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

they weren't a bottom feeder this year. they beat arizona in the conference tourney championship game. and the year after we beat them in the cbi, they won the pac10 regular season title. last year they finished 3rd in the conference and won the conference tourney. while they had a disappointing year in 07-08, they've been pretty good in the three years since. hardly a bottom feeder. those people referring to them as such haven't been paying much attention.

Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 09, 2011, 07:16:05 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 09, 2011, 04:43:35 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 09, 2011, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 08, 2011, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on April 08, 2011, 01:48:22 PM

Quote from: mj on April 08, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

:clap:

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

they weren't a bottom feeder this year. they beat arizona in the conference tourney championship game. and the year after we beat them in the cbi, they won the pac10 regular season title. last year they finished 3rd in the conference and won the conference tourney. while they had a disappointing year in 07-08, they've been pretty good in the three years since. hardly a bottom feeder. those people referring to them as such haven't been paying much attention.

Well, they were that year when we played them, but yeah, they're not perennial bottom feeders like DePaul.

It's still legitimate, I understand (I've never accepted that assessment about our CBI win either), and it's good to build on.  I'm just thinking about all the plausible qualifiers that people can come up with in order to not be impressed.  I've thought them too: when Oakland beat Tennessee this year, even though they were ranked 7th in the nation at the time, the whole Pearl controversy which really seemed to drag them down quite a bit can't help but detract from the win.  It's a reminder that in order for us to win at a Big-6 school, they have to bring their C game or something.

In summary - beat a BCS school, any BCS school, no matter how poorly they're playing. Wouldn't beating IU have been nice when they were down these last few years?

Quote from: milanmiracle on April 09, 2011, 09:54:41 PM
In summary - beat a BCS school, any BCS school, no matter how poorly they're playing. Wouldn't beating IU have been nice when they were down these last few years?

Lots of luck scheduling them.

Quote from: crusaderboy on March 23, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

I just happened upon this very old thread and found it interesting.  As I was the brunt of people's angst relative to the question, I thought I'd revive the thread.  Crusaderboy called my position an "embarrassment".  Now, over a year later, I wonder about the thread.(hey, things are really slow!!)  :o  My point was that Butler was not "head and shoulders" better than Valpo and that they were better but not by that much.  Now, after four straight wins and Valpo putting out maybe our best team ever, what do the pundits think?  Crusaderboy? Care to contribute??

You have to give Butler their due.  They had the 2 best back-to-back years that any mid major has ever had or probably ever will have. To turn something that highly improbable into reality, everything had to fall together perfectly - and it did.  Also, lest anyone forgets they were also led by the 3 best players they've ever had and probably ever will have.  You also can't ignore several fine seasons they had leading up to those glory years. 

As to Valpo vs. Butler I think if you look at the past 20 years or so, you could say that we had more success earlier than they did and they've had several better years later.   Now the tide seems to have turned again in our favor.  We dominated them last year and would have been favored over them in the HL again this year.  We should also be pretty well loaded again next year.  As to Butler, they've bet the entire future of their basketball program on this move to the A-10.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

A resounding yes.

Since 2002-03, Butler is 25-14 against BCS opponents and Valpo is 1-16.

It's not even a contest. Sorry, fellas.

By far. Not even close. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   ;)

Quote from: wh on September 19, 2012, 11:09:10 PM
You have to give Butler their due.  They had the 2 best back-to-back years that any mid major has ever had or probably ever will have. To turn something that highly improbable into reality, everything had to fall together perfectly - and it did.  Also, lest anyone forgets they were also led by the 3 best players they've ever had and probably ever will have.  You also can't ignore several fine seasons they had leading up to those glory years. 

As to Valpo vs. Butler I think if you look at the past 20 years or so, you could say that we had more success earlier than they did and they've had several better years later.   Now the tide seems to have turned again in our favor.  We dominated them last year and would have been favored over them in the HL again this year.  We should also be pretty well loaded again next year.  As to Butler, they've bet the entire future of their basketball program on this move to the A-10.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Quote from: dylanrocks on September 20, 2012, 10:19:23 AM
A resounding yes.

Since 2002-03, Butler is 25-14 against BCS opponents and Valpo is 1-16.

It's not even a contest. Sorry, fellas.

Based on the 2010-11 season, I would say that Butler was "a head" above Valpo, but not "head and shoulders" above.  Based on the 2002-3 thru now data against BCS opponents, I would say the same, but leaning towards "head and shoulders".  What I would want to look at is how Butler was able to schedule all of these BCS games, and how can Valpo emulate that scheduling.  I would also want to see what opponents they played, and would Valpo have had chance in some of those games.  Valpo has been playing the NC's, Duke, etc.  I'd like to see Valpo play Northwestern or Iowa - home and United Center I'm sure would be the only way.  I'm sure the players and coaches don't feel that Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo.  Butler has shown that it can be done, and that Valpo isn't too far from doing the same.  We beat Butler in 2011.  Butler went on a great run after that game.  The question is can Valpo play at that level, and in a tournament format - NIT or NCAA.  Butler is not Duke, NC, Michigan St., etc.  They've been better than Valpo, but not that much better.

Congratulations, 72, on four Horizon League wins, none of which remotely register on the national radar.

As for how to get where Butler is, it starts with a spark.

Get into a tournament like the Preseason NIT, 76 Classic or Diamond Head Classic and beat programs with a reputation like Notre Dame, Indiana, Tennessee and Gonzaga.

That will get you noticed by comparable programs and help you with your schedule.

Quote from: dylanrocks on September 21, 2012, 11:00:48 AM
Congratulations, 72, on four Horizon League wins, none of which remotely register on the national radar.

As for how to get where Butler is, it starts with a spark.

Get into a tournament like the Preseason NIT, 76 Classic or Diamond Head Classic and beat programs with a reputation like Notre Dame, Indiana, Tennessee and Gonzaga.

That will get you noticed by comparable programs and help you with your schedule.

I'll defer to your wisdom dylan.  I suppose it is like Milwaukee trying to get to Valpo's level of national exposure.  It won't be easy.

Quote from: vu72 on September 20, 2012, 12:02:58 PM
I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   ;)

Within the context of last season and the one at hand, I don't think even the multitude of know-nothing Butler message board fans would disagree with you that the tide has turned in Valpo's favor. 

I guess I look at things from a slightly different perspective.

I could care less if VU is now better than Butler, or not.  (I will miss playing Butler; I saw a lot of good VU-Butler BB games growing up, and it seems a shame that we no longer play the one school that truly is a natural rival.) 

Rather than concentrate on that question, I think we should concentrate on beating some BCS schools and getting back to the NCAA tournament.  We all say we have a "loaded" team this year.  Let's prove it by beating some of the big boys in Nov-Dec and getting our name up on the TV screen come Selection Sunday.  Paul

Quote from: 78crusader on September 21, 2012, 11:57:34 AM (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=59.msg17506#msg17506)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guess I look at things from a slightly different perspective.I could care less if VU is now better than Butler, or not.  (I will miss playing Butler; I saw a lot of good VU-Butler BB games growing up, and it seems a shame that we no longer play the one school that truly is a natural rival.)  Rather than concentrate on that question, I think we should concentrate on beating some BCS schools and getting back to the NCAA tournament.  We all say we have a "loaded" team this year.  Let's prove it by beating some of the big boys in Nov-Dec and getting our name up on the TV screen come Selection Sunday.  Paul
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Surprise! I agree wholeheartedly.  :thumbsup:

From my perspective, yes, Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo. I am talking about the programs, not individual seasons or a game or two.Two national championship game appearances dictate they are better. Valpo can beat Butler in the regular season from now to eternity, and it just doesn't matter. Valpo can win all the regular season championships they want, but until they get to the NCAA tournament, it's just a nice door prize. If a tree falls in the woods, but nobody is there to hear it, does it really make a sound? Until Valpo can start making the dance on a regular basis and beat BCS conference teams, it's just not a reasonable comparison. It's kind of like bragging about bringing the queen of the county fair to the dance only to find out your best friend brought Miss Universe.

On the court, they're not that far apart, but clearly Butler has something figured out that Valpo doesn't...they beat legit BCS programs...Valpo can't.

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 21, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
Valpo can win all the regular season championships they want, but until they get to the NCAA tournament, it's just a nice door prize. ..... Until Valpo can start making the dance on a regular basis and beat BCS conference teams, it's just not a reasonable comparison..... On the court, they're not that far apart, but clearly Butler has something figured out that Valpo doesn't...they beat legit BCS programs...Valpo can't.

I guess a lot of us are hoping this is the year that it all begins to happen.

Quote from: VULB#62 on September 21, 2012, 10:22:29 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 21, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
Valpo can win all the regular season championships they want, but until they get to the NCAA tournament, it's just a nice door prize. ..... Until Valpo can start making the dance on a regular basis and beat BCS conference teams, it's just not a reasonable comparison..... On the court, they're not that far apart, but clearly Butler has something figured out that Valpo doesn't...they beat legit BCS programs...Valpo can't.

I guess a lot of us are hoping this is the year that it all begins to happen.

Me included!

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 21, 2012, 10:18:10 PMFrom my perspective, yes, Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo. I am talking about the programs, not individual seasons or a game or two.

That's fine (and I agree), except you're changing the question.  If you think the original question was bogus, just say so.  Don't answer a different question than what was asked.

Quote from: StlVUFan on September 26, 2012, 12:47:32 PMDon't answer a different question than what was asked.

DING DING DING we have a winner
+1 internetz to you, sir.  (and thank you)

Quote from: StlVUFan on September 26, 2012, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 21, 2012, 10:18:10 PMFrom my perspective, yes, Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo. I am talking about the programs, not individual seasons or a game or two.

That's fine (and I agree), except you're changing the question.  If you think the original question was bogus, just say so.  Don't answer a different question than what was asked.

You might want to go back and re-read the question and even a whole lot of the responses. I'm not the only one who answered the question that way.

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 28, 2012, 09:29:21 PM

Quote from: StlVUFan on September 26, 2012, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 21, 2012, 10:18:10 PMFrom my perspective, yes, Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo. I am talking about the programs, not individual seasons or a game or two.

That's fine (and I agree), except you're changing the question.  If you think the original question was bogus, just say so.  Don't answer a different question than what was asked.

You might want to go back and re-read the question and even a whole lot of the responses. I'm not the only one who answered the question that way.

Changes nothing, except maybe increasing the size of the intended audience of my retort.

Quote from: wh on September 21, 2012, 11:26:46 AM

Quote from: vu72 on September 20, 2012, 12:02:58 PM
I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   ;)

Within the context of last season and the one at hand, I don't think even the multitude of know-nothing Butler message board fans would disagree with you that the tide has turned in Valpo's favor. 

I can't believe I missed the revival of this thread, especially since I set up a Google Alerts for the phrase "know-nothing Butler message board fans".  Putting my obvious issues with Google aside, with a third of the '12-'13 season in the books, I wonder if you still believe "the tide has turned in Valpo's favor".  After accumulating 4 BCS wins (including two in the Top-10) in the last month, I do think a few "know-nothing" Butler fans have probably sipped the Kool-Aid and are pleased with the status of their program.

Butler is doing great so far!  I no longer have any issue cheering for them, as long they aren't playing Valpo or IU.

Butler would destroy valpo this year. Just my take. They play as a team and use their talents. We look lost and confused.

Quote from: zvillehaze on December 18, 2012, 05:19:32 PMI can't believe I missed the revival of this thread, especially since I set up a Google Alerts for the phrase "know-nothing Butler message board fans".  Putting my obvious issues with Google aside, with a third of the '12-'13 season in the books, I wonder if you still believe "the tide has turned in Valpo's favor".  After accumulating 4 BCS wins (including two in the Top-10) in the last month, I do think a few "know-nothing" Butler fans have probably sipped the Kool-Aid and are pleased with the status of their program.

Let me remind you that strutting around and crowing is highly discouraged on this board and that kicking people when they are down is absolutely forbidden. Shame on you!

Quote from: zvillehaze on December 18, 2012, 05:19:32 PM

Quote from: wh on September 21, 2012, 11:26:46 AM

Quote from: vu72 on September 20, 2012, 12:02:58 PM
I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   ;)

Within the context of last season and the one at hand, I don't think even the multitude of know-nothing Butler message board fans would disagree with you that the tide has turned in Valpo's favor. 

I can't believe I missed the revival of this thread, especially since I set up a Google Alerts for the phrase "know-nothing Butler message board fans". Putting my obvious issues with Google aside, with a third of the '12-'13 season in the books, I wonder if you still believe "the tide has turned in Valpo's favor".  After accumulating 4 BCS wins (including two in the Top-10) in the last month, I do think a few "know-nothing" Butler fans have probably sipped the Kool-Aid and are pleased with the status of their program.

I can't speak to this year, but when Butler was in the HL their message board fans as a group were the most ignorant in the league.  There's no question about that.  You could tell by their posts that they never took the time to learn about any of the other programs.  Very few posts were ever insightful or substantive.  Rather, they were predictably flippant and condescending and showed very little knowledge of the game.  A large number of posters regularly engaged in one-upmanship with each other over petty issues.

The bottom line is a board of almost no value.  There are a handful of Butler posters, zville included, who do seem to be knowledgeable, fair-minded individuals, but they are clearly 3 standard deviations beyond the mean.  The Butler board is living proof that there is absolutely no relationship between the knowledge of the fan base and the success of the program.  If there were, Butler would have gone 4-28 a couple of years ago. 

 

Hilarious to read through this old thread!  Glad to see it resurrected.  VU72 was straight trollin' and you all were none the wiser. 

I really liked the posts from dcvalpo.  Insightful, honest, hilarious.  He is dearly missed.

Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on December 19, 2012, 11:36:41 PM
Hilarious to read through this old thread!  Glad to see it resurrected.  VU72 was straight trollin' and you all were none the wiser. 

I really liked the posts from dcvalpo.  Insightful, honest, hilarious.  He is dearly missed.

dcvalpo had a knack for igniting conversation. I will say that much. Does anybody have any doubts that Valpo is not on the same level as Butler anymore? After a win against #1 IU, I'm a steadfast believer that Butler IS head and shoulders better than Valpo. I love that we were able to soundly defeat them a couple of times last season, but I think those days are over. If we are fortunate enough to even get a game against them in the future, we will be an underdog for sure (as we always were looked at that way).