Figure this deserves its own thread before it becomes all we're taking about on the Valpo vs. Detroit game thread...
Who wouldn't be excited in that situation, but who could have handled it better? He was really geeked up tonight, and while I want to respect his passion and be objective about this... I mean wow. Pounding on our logo at halfcourt, directing his celebrations to the camera, and dunking in an 18-point game in the final seconds?!?!?!? (They didn't show it on ESPN, can anyone explain what kind of dunk it was?)
My early thoughts, yours?
Quote from: KL31NY on March 06, 2012, 10:21:35 PM
...but who could have handled it better?
Anyone. It was particularly hilarious given that the ESPN announcers were talking right at the beginning of the game about how "mature" he is. Laughs were had by all.
After the taunting and self celebration little Jr. was doing, there'd have been no dunks allowed. Period. Think Detroit Pistons with Isiah and Bill Laimbeer.
Brings to mind Michael Watson.
Extremely inappropriate and uncalled for. Simple as that. But the coach's son won't take any heat for it I don't think.
Quote from: KL31NY on March 06, 2012, 10:21:35 PM
Figure this deserves its own thread before it becomes all we're taking about on the Valpo vs. Detroit game thread...
Who wouldn't be excited in that situation, but who could have handled it better? He was really geeked up tonight, and while I want to respect his passion and be objective about this... I mean wow. Pounding on our logo at halfcourt, directing his celebrations to the camera, and dunking in an 18-point game in the final seconds?!?!?!? (They didn't show it on ESPN, can anyone explain what kind of dunk it was?)
My early thoughts, yours?
By the way, the dunk was just him taking it downcourt and taking off of two feet for a strong two-handed jam.
Thanks for the details DM. Wonder if anyone has video to determine whether it went off on time maybe? I posted in the game thread that there are conflicting reports about whether Detroit and Ray ended with 70/68 and 21/19 respectively.
All that aside, to the young fella, act your age, not your jersey #. Don't want to feel like vomiting when I see him and UDM in the tourney. I always want, key word "want," to able to have some support for the HL teams that go postseason. Represent well, everyone. We're watching you!
Quote from: KL31NY on March 06, 2012, 11:14:07 PM
Thanks for the details DM. Wonder if anyone has video to determine whether it went off on time maybe? I posted in the game thread that there are conflicting reports about whether Detroit and Ray ended with 70/68 and 21/19 respectively.
All that aside, to the young fella, act your age, not your jersey #. Don't want to feel like vomiting when I see him and UDM in the tourney. I always want, key word "want," to able to have some support for the HL teams that go postseason. Represent well, everyone. We're watching you!
It was definitely before the horn.
According to Lazerus' write up, he thought time had already expired. So did I, come to think of it. I still don't like it, but when he discovered that it counted, he apologized.
I still think the classy thing to do is just dribble it out, like you usually see. Honestly, I don't know if he's done that before. This is a bigger moment than usual.
I also think if you were going to do that, you should save it for THE title game in April. Act like you still have work to do.
Wow, Ray Jr. did act like a douche bag at the end and many times during the game. I think he wanted his dad to hug him but Ray Sr. just couldn't bring himself to hug Ray Jr. back.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 06, 2012, 11:27:32 PM
According to Lazerus' write up, he thought time had already expired. So did I, come to think of it. I still don't like it, but when he discovered that it counted, he apologized.
I still think the classy thing to do is just dribble it out, like you usually see. Honestly, I don't know if he's done that before. This is a bigger moment than usual.
I also think if you were going to do that, you should save it for THE title game in April. Act like you still have work to do.
Oh come on, do you really believe that? He very well knew that it was still in play, he just realized he looked like an @$$, so tried to make himself look better. You know when the horn sounds and when the basket lights up lol
I didn't say I bought his apology, just that he gave one.
The game isn't over until that loud horn sounds....the cheering wasn't that loud to drown it out. I thought the rest of Detroit's team was very respectful in their celebration minus Jr. He needs to grow up. Quit putting on the show for the cameras and act like a respectful team leader. If he does he is going to be a star.
Quote from: bbtds on March 06, 2012, 11:28:55 PM
Wow, Ray Jr. did act like a douche bag at the end and many times during the game. I think he wanted his dad to hug him but Ray Sr. just couldn't bring himself to hug Ray Jr. back.
can you blame him? after a dickhead move like he pulled, i wouldn't hug him back either.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 07, 2012, 06:51:32 AM
Quote from: bbtds on March 06, 2012, 11:28:55 PM
Wow, Ray Jr. did act like a douche bag at the end and many times during the game. I think he wanted his dad to hug him but Ray Sr. just couldn't bring himself to hug Ray Jr. back.
can you blame him? after a dickhead move like he pulled, i wouldn't hug him back either.
Yes, it was a tough way to lose. What motivates one student athlete does not motivate another. Ray Jr certainly has a lot to learn about sportsmanship. But it did work for him to act like an ass because it kept the momentum in Detroit's favor. Valpo could never quite turn the tide on their home court having played only their second game in 11 days while the Titans played 4 games in 8 days. That was quite a mountain to climb. Ray Sr might not have raised a son who respects his opposition but Ray tried to teach it before the game and he kept fairly calm and did not blow it like he had in many games this year. Kudos to Ray Sr for his decided turn in coaching ability and Ray Jr for finding a way not to let the momentum swing. Ray Jr will fit in with one of the losing teams in the NBA quite nicely. How long he spends in the NBA will depend on how quickly Ray Jr grows up. In the end the talent of the Titans, no matter how unsportsmanlike, won out over the Christian, character men of Valpo. Detroit is the team that is dancing and Valpo plays in the NIT where no fans remember anything about you unless you win it all and that fades pretty quickly.
Glad I turned it off with 2 minutes to go.
He is quite a talent and if he wants to behave like that....he can. He just came out the 2H and took over the game. That kind of explosive talent is difficult to defend, particularly when he gets on a roll.
The best thing we can do is simply get over it.
lowposter
Quote from: lowposter on March 07, 2012, 07:32:27 AM
Glad I turned it off with 2 minutes to go.
He is quite a talent and if he wants to behave like that....he can. He just came out the 2H and took over the game. That kind of explosive talent is difficult to defend, particularly when he gets on a roll.
The best thing we can do is simply get over it.
lowposter
Totally agree. We also need to stop setting ourselves up for great disappointment by looking too far ahead. It is quite possible that Valpo finishes third or lower next year and loses their third game in the tourney to the #2 seed. We are setting ourselves up for a big fall. It still would not be as big a fall as Butler fans went through from going to 2 National championship games to losing in the HL tourney. But when you expect too much the fall can be extremely tough when you get to the bottom. Keep it in perspective.
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
Quote from: hoopfan22 on March 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
This.
Imitidated our players along with the fact that his energy boosted his team. Say what you want about his class, but he was the first one running over to teammates to high-five them for something good or tell them to chill if they did something bad.
Let's all be real to, if Ray McCallum (or player like him) wanted to come to Valpo, we'd take him in a heartbeat regardless of last-second dunking.
Quote from: hoopfan22 on March 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
this^^^
Quote from: Valpo10 on March 07, 2012, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: hoopfan22 on March 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
This.
Imitidated our players along with the fact that his energy boosted his team. Say what you want about his class, but he was the first one running over to teammates to high-five them for something good or tell them to chill if they did something bad.
Let's all be real to, if Ray McCallum (or player like him) wanted to come to Valpo, we'd take him in a heartbeat regardless of last-second dunking.
Do you think he would act like a classless fool if he played for Valparaiso and Bryce Drew? Or Butler and Brad Stevens? Or Wright State and Billy Donlon? Or any of several other high quality programs and coaches in the Horizon League? His actions are just more evidence of the systemic problem that is Detroit Mercy basketball, authored by his father and supported by a clueless A.D. and university officials.
Quote from: wh on March 07, 2012, 09:32:49 AM
Quote from: Valpo10 on March 07, 2012, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: hoopfan22 on March 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
This.
Imitidated our players along with the fact that his energy boosted his team. Say what you want about his class, but he was the first one running over to teammates to high-five them for something good or tell them to chill if they did something bad.
Let's all be real to, if Ray McCallum (or player like him) wanted to come to Valpo, we'd take him in a heartbeat regardless of last-second dunking.
Do you think he would act like a classless fool if he played for Valparaiso and Bryce Drew? Or Butler and Brad Stevens? Or Wright State and Billy Donlon? Or any of several other high quality programs and coaches in the Horizon League? His actions are just more evidence of the systemic problem that is Detroit Mercy basketball, authored by his father and supported by a clueless A.D. and university officials.
Remember the ever so classy Tony V at center? Remember how tough we were?
I'm still curious why when Richie displayed emotion, he was given a T. When McCallum does it he's said to play with emotion and was motivating. I also remember Brandon Wood hitting a few 3s in a row, coming back to the bench pumped up and emoting and was hit with a T. But, it's ok because when it's on the Mothership, it's about leadership and willing his team to victory. And suddenly Ray McCallum Sr is a genius head coach. A coach who in his pregame speech has to remind his players to get back on defense after a dunk instead of posing and looking for the cameras. Great coaching advice.
Just watched the presser on Detroit's website. Ray's apology- "I was not trying to disrespect them or anything, I just got excited being in the moment... I actually thought that the time had run out... I apologize for that, I just got caught up in the moment."
I'm not buying this 100%, but I at least appreciate how he handled himself when asked about it. He is still a great talent who can take it to another gear like the best of them. I hope he realizes that the next situation like last night's will need more composure and sportsmanship, and that he can do that while still keeping that unbridled energy he gets when he is on.
Hi Valpo Fans,
Congratulations on a great season. I did not come here to gloat or talk smack. I have read with your interest all of the strong opinions about the actions of Ray Jr and Detroit's fans.
I did not see the dunk at the end. The old cliche, "Act like you've been here before" comes to mind when it comes to Ray Jr. But the fact is, he is a 19 year old kid who hasn't been here before. The Detroit team and program and fans are not as highly evolved as a team that has success year in and year out like a Duke.
I will say that I think part of what has been perceived as Ray Jr mugging for the cameras was actually due to the fact that the end-court camera guy was right in front of the student cheering section at that end of the court. I really believe a lot of that was Ray trying to fire up the far-outnumbered Detroit faithful at that end of the court, but it appeared on screen as if he was doing it for the camera. Beyond that, he was trying to keep his teammates focused and passionate and energized. And it worked, which is why Drew seemed to call a timeout after almost every McCallum basket in the second half, leaving him with no timeouts down the stretch. As far as banging his hands on the court while setting up on D - any basketball fa knows that is a time-honored tradition for trying to fire up your teammates and fans and stay focused on playing the suffocating defense that he and his teammates displayed the whole second half.
I did not hear any obscenities by the Detroit fans by watching it on TV, but if that really happened, I would be disappointed that some of those kids did not behave with more class. 19 year olds can act like d-bags sometimes and again, they didn't really know how to act because they've never been there before. But I think you'll find fans like that at just about any sporting event you go to (you should go to a Lions or Redskins game sometime).
A lot of people have lumped in the whole team together and described them as classless thugs. But other than your disapproval of some of Ray's antics, who else on the Detroit team did anything classless last night? Holman, for example, has shown signs of maturity since he came back from his suspension earlier this year. I don't know if it's the meds they put him on, or he's just starting to bcome more emotonally mature, but it seems to be working. Even when he had a couple BS fouls called on him, including the first one when he was basically called for being in the vicinity of a Valpo player tripping over his own feet, he didn't lose his composure or complain.
My main concern with all of Ray Jr's flexing and trying to fire up his teammates and the Detroit fans was that he was expending so much energy doing so that he wouldn't have enough left in the tank at the end of the game, when so many Titan games have been lost in recent seasons. I do think he is a good kid - honor roll student, and everyone who meets him says so. This game was validation for what was a very difficult decision - passing up on teams like Kansas, Florida, Arizona, and UCLA to play for his Dad in front of 1,500 mostly gray-haired alumni hanging on to past glory from the late 90s and 70s, and seeing a revolving door of players on and off the roster over the past two seasons. Injuries, suspensions, and recruits that never made it on campus, or only lasted long enough for a cup of coffee. Two of the most talented players on the team - Steve Blake and Nick Minnerath - were gone and injured, leaving Ray relying on people like Donovan Foster (a MAC backup at best) and Chase (generally needs 17 shots to score 13 points) Simon as teammates. This was the biggest night of his life and he had a ton of raw emotion and passion. If he's on your team, you love it. If he's not, you hate it. I get that.
While Ray was clearly the MVP of the tourney, LaMarcus Lowe had a HUGE game and showed tremendous toughness and heart despite being gimpy for much of the game himself.
Good luck in the NIT - maybe you can make a run like Detroit did awhile back when they beat Dayton, UConn and others on their way to the semifinals.
Nice post DC. Thanks for the input.
Quote from: wh on March 07, 2012, 09:32:49 AM
Quote from: Valpo10 on March 07, 2012, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: hoopfan22 on March 07, 2012, 08:46:31 AM
Maybe we need a mccallum like attitude guy on the team.
This.
Imitidated our players along with the fact that his energy boosted his team. Say what you want about his class, but he was the first one running over to teammates to high-five them for something good or tell them to chill if they did something bad.
Let's all be real to, if Ray McCallum (or player like him) wanted to come to Valpo, we'd take him in a heartbeat regardless of last-second dunking.
Do you think he would act like a classless fool if he played for Valparaiso and Bryce Drew? Or Butler and Brad Stevens? Or Wright State and Billy Donlon? Or any of several other high quality programs and coaches in the Horizon League? His actions are just more evidence of the systemic problem that is Detroit Mercy basketball, authored by his father and supported by a clueless A.D. and university officials.
A systemic problem that just got them into the NCAA tournament. It was Jr's enthusiasm and yes, douchiness, that both willed his team to win and put our guys in a position that they absolutely could not handle. Jr. willed his team to win, whether you like it or not. He willed them to put their foot on our neck which is a quality I've rarely if ever seen in a Valpo team.
Yes, Jr. is a jackass, but it was that jackassery that beat us last night.
Can we put one issue to rest. There's no way McCallum didn't know his dunk came with time left on the clock. I clearly noticed him glance at the clock when he started his drive with about :03 left. When the ball went through there was about 1.2 on the clock. The clock actually should have stopped at that time for the ball to be inbounded, but I think everybody was so shocked at what he just did that they let the clock run out. Of all players to perform such a low class act, it comes from the son of a coach.
IMO, it is not appropriate to call out the UDM basketball program in its entirety, their A.D., or any other school official associated with UDM as a "systematic problem" because of what happened last night.
The A.D. hired a coach that left his last three stops after recruiting improprieties (Houston, Oklahoma, and Indiana). Does anybody believe a coach with this track record would have been hired by the Valpo A.D.?
Quote from: DCBaller on March 07, 2012, 09:57:55 AMI did not hear any obscenities by the Detroit fans by watching it on TV, but if that really happened, I would be disappointed that some of those kids did not behave with more class. 19 year olds can act like d-bags sometimes and again, they didn't really know how to act because they've never been there before. But I think you'll find fans like that at just about any sporting event you go to (you should go to a Lions or Redskins game sometime).
I give credit to Detroit and will back them in the tourney. I am not dumb enough to cut off my nose to spite my face. Despite what we all think they are representing our conference and we should wish for them to do well and hope they behave appropriately. Ray Sr. gave his team some very good advice at the beginning of the game, I just hope that they follow it in the tournament. It needs to be made clear to the team and their fans that they are representing not just their school but many other HL institutions.
I also watched on TV and you could definitely hear the chant with the f@*% word in it, there is no excuse for this behavior no matter what your age. If I was made aware of that kind of language coming from VU students I would be on the phone with Mark Labarbera letting him know my displeasure at having our Lutheran university represented in such a manner.
I commend Ray Jr. for wanting to play for his father and making that "tough" decision, but also understand that he chose this path and should have known that it would not be the easy road. Bryce and his father did the same thing and while I certainly remember passion and excitement, I don't remember the frustration that you say Ray Jr. is acting out on. Earlier this year Richie Edwards was ejected from a game, as many have posted here, for far less of an emotional outburst then was displayed by Ray Jr. last night, and many of the posters on this board agreed with the ejection some even calling for his dismissal from the team. Detroit fans need to have higher expectations for their team and fan behavior on and off the court and then perhaps you would not have to come up with conjecture as to why action occurred.
Please go and represent the HL win or lose (I sincerely hope it is with a couple of wins) with integrity.
Quote from: FWalum on March 07, 2012, 10:59:03 AM
Quote from: DCBaller on March 07, 2012, 09:57:55 AMI did not hear any obscenities by the Detroit fans by watching it on TV, but if that really happened, I would be disappointed that some of those kids did not behave with more class. 19 year olds can act like d-bags sometimes and again, they didn't really know how to act because they've never been there before. But I think you'll find fans like that at just about any sporting event you go to (you should go to a Lions or Redskins game sometime).
I give credit to Detroit and will back them in the tourney. I am not dumb enough to cut off my nose to spite my face. Despite what we all think they are representing our conference and we should wish for them to do well and hope they behave appropriately. Ray Sr. gave his team some very good advice at the beginning of the game, I just hope that they follow it in the tournament. It needs to be made clear to the team and their fans that they are representing not just their school but many other HL institutions.
I also watched on TV and you could definitely hear the chant with the f@*% word in it, there is no excuse for this behavior no matter what your age. If I was made aware of that kind of language coming from VU students I would be on the phone with Mark Labarbera letting him know my displeasure at having our Lutheran university represented in such a manner.
I commend Ray Jr. for wanting to play for his father and making that "tough" decision, but also understand that he chose this path and should have known that it would not be the easy road. Bryce and his father did the same thing and while I certainly remember passion and excitement, I don't remember the frustration that you say Ray Jr. is acting out on. Earlier this year Richie Edwards was ejected from a game, as many have posted here, for far less of an emotional outburst then was displayed by Ray Jr. last night, and many of the posters on this board agreed with the ejection some even calling for his dismissal from the team. Detroit fans need to have higher expectations for their team and fan behavior on and off the court and then perhaps you would not have to come up with conjecture as to why action occurred.
Please go and represent the HL win or lose (I sincerely hope it is with a couple of wins) with integrity.
:thumbsup:
Though still aggravated at Ray's actions, I don't harbor ill will towards Detroit as a university. There is no way that I would support Ray if he was on our team and acted that same way throughout games, I don't care how much talent he has. Then again, as someone else mentioned, he would not be allowed to act as such at our school...
Quote from: chef on March 07, 2012, 10:53:24 AM
The A.D. hired a coach that left his last three stops after recruiting improprieties (Houston, Oklahoma, and Indiana). Does anybody believe a coach with this track record would have been hired by the Valpo A.D.?
I certainly don't.
Chef
Please post links to stories that directly tie McCallum to recruiting improprieties. Not Kelvin Sampson, but McCallum. Thanks.
I tried to post a link to an espn.com story from 2/23/2008 on the deal between Kelvin Sampson and IU but this site says I can't "post external links." You can find it if you search for McCallum recruiting improprieties
So I'll quote it for you: "Neither Dakich nor McCallum were implicated in the latest NCAA allegations, and McCallum also was cleared of any wrongdoing while assisting Sampson at Oklahoma."
Let's be fair.
Quote from: chef on March 07, 2012, 10:53:24 AM
The A.D. hired a coach that left his last three stops after recruiting improprieties (Houston, Oklahoma, and Indiana). Does anybody believe a coach with this track record would have been hired by the Valpo A.D.?
My point exactly. If you hire sleaze, you share responsibility for the negative shadow that individual casts on your university and it's athletic programs.
wh - Since we are on the topic of "class," do you really think it's fair and classy to refer to another man as "sleaze" without a single fact to back up that opinion? And for what cause? I think your comments say more about you than they do Ray McCallum.
Quote from: DCBaller on March 07, 2012, 11:39:38 AM
wh - Since we are on the topic of "class," do you really think it's fair and classy to refer to another man as "sleaze" without a single fact to back up that opinion? And for what cause? I think your comments say more about you than they do Ray McCallum.
DC you're not going to win this battle in here. Not today. It's everyone else's fault for a minimum of 24 hours. Guarantee if VU won, none of this would be talked about. Great game to UD and good luck in the tourney.
Detroit's Student Section was classier /sarcasm.
Quote from: chef on March 07, 2012, 10:20:16 AM
Can we put one issue to rest. There's no way McCallum didn't know his dunk came with time left on the clock. I clearly noticed him glance at the clock when he started his drive with about :03 left. When the ball went through there was about 1.2 on the clock. The clock actually should have stopped at that time for the ball to be inbounded, but I think everybody was so shocked at what he just did that they let the clock run out. Of all players to perform such a low class act, it comes from the son of a coach.
this.
mccallum had the ball and looked up at the clock, saw there was plenty of time left, THEN swooped in from the wing for the dunk.
Calculated move.
Quote from: chef on March 07, 2012, 10:53:24 AM
The A.D. hired a coach that left his last three stops after recruiting improprieties (Houston, Oklahoma, and Indiana). Does anybody believe a coach with this track record would have been hired by the Valpo A.D.?
What difference does it make whether he would have been hired at Valpo? How does the question of whether Valpo would have hired the guy relate to the alleged "systematic problem" that is UDM basketball?
What information is their A.D. and other school officials privity to that is creating this "systematic problem"? Pell Grant scandal? Deep pocket boosters making payments to players? Bounty system for injuries? Free shoes? What is it? Surely it just can't be the fact that the kid wanted to show up VU last night, right?
I'm not a Valpo fan, but I do like the program, and always wish it well, The game on ESPN last night was great and did alot for the league, Valpo and Detroit nationally, since many of us out there in basketball land are Butler-ed out, it's nice to have two teams like Valpo and Detroit represent the league. As for JR's dunk, he's a kid, and a pretty good kid at that, he went to a outstanding HS (Detroit Country Day) got Dean's List grades, and comes from a wonderful normal family. If there were more kids like him in the counrty maybe we'd be in better shape. The Univ of Detroit has been and is a outstanding school, one that Valpo should model itself after. For Valpo fans to blast the school and team because it's in Detroit is like blasting Valpo because it's near Gary. You people need to grow up, the truth is if you had the chance you'd take JR on your team in a heartbeat, and he'd do for Valpo what he's is doing for Detroit. You people need to listen to him speak, he is a bright, class young man, and the league should be proud that he will be the face of the league the next 2 years. I for one enjoyed seeing him work so hard and win the game for his school, his efforts against you, CSU and YSU are classic, would you people be happier if he flipped the crowd like the Super Bowl half time show? Why is Detroit any worst then other inner city schools, have you visited USC lately.
Enjoy your NIT run, I hope to see your team in the Garden, it's something your players will remember for ever, they say Detroit may play Michigan State the first round, you need to root for Detroit to "pay back MSU for taking your ticket to the big dance this year, player Wood.
I like McCallum Jr. and his "stick it in you ear" approach to the game. We need a guy like this on "our" team. On the other hand we do have some tough guys,particularly those that play in the paint. I respect them and wish the rest of the team played "hard nosed" basketball as well. Perhaps,being on a small campus, our athletes intermingle too much with the "softies" on the football team. If so,its catching. Anyhow, let's win a game or two or more in the NIT. A visit to MSG would be a great capstone to a truly great season. GO VALPO! :thumbsup:
Quote from: nymike on March 07, 2012, 12:20:24 PM
I'm not a Valpo fan, but I do like the program, and always wish it well, The game on ESPN last night was great and did alot for the league, Valpo and Detroit nationally, since many of us out there in basketball land are Butler-ed out, it's nice to have two teams like Valpo and Detroit represent the league. As for JR's dunk, he's a kid, and a pretty good kid at that, he went to a outstanding HS (Detroit Country Day) got Dean's List grades, and comes from a wonderful normal family. If there were more kids like him in the counrty maybe we'd be in better shape. The Univ of Detroit has been and is a outstanding school, one that Valpo should model itself after. For Valpo fans to blast the school and team because it's in Detroit is like blasting Valpo because it's near Gary. You people need to grow up, the truth is if you had the chance you'd take JR on your team in a heartbeat, and he'd do for Valpo what he's is doing for Detroit. You people need to listen to him speak, he is a bright, class young man, and the league should be proud that he will be the face of the league the next 2 years. I for one enjoyed seeing him work so hard and win the game for his school, his efforts against you, CSU and YSU are classic, would you people be happier if he flipped the crowd like the Super Bowl half time show? Why is Detroit any worst then other inner city schools, have you visited USC lately.
Enjoy your NIT run, I hope to see your team in the Garden, it's something your players will remember for ever, they say Detroit may play Michigan State the first round, you need to root for Detroit to "pay back MSU for taking your ticket to the big dance this year, player Wood.
I agree that Detroit provides a good education, but don't say that we should MODEL ourselves after the school. We are consistently ranked higher than UDM in the various rankings out there, with UDM being 23 to our 4 in the most recent US News & World Report for the Midwest. That means both schools are good, but not that we have to model ourselves after the school. No one is bashing UDM's educational merits, so please don't take it that way.
Quote from: setshot on March 07, 2012, 12:38:20 PM
I like McCallum Jr. and his "stick it in you ear" approach to the game. We need a guy like this on "our" team. On the other hand we do have some tough guys,particularly those that play in the paint. I respect them and wish the rest of the team played "hard nosed" basketball as well. Perhaps,being on a small campus, our athletes intermingle too much with the "softies" on the football team. If so,its catching. Anyhow, let's win a game or two or more in the NIT. A visit to MSG would be a great capstone to a truly great season. GO VALPO! :thumbsup:
Setshot, why don't you put some pads on and see exactly how "soft" our football team is? Nice school spirit you got there.
Sorry I didn't mean to sound like Valpo is not a fine school, it is, so is Detroit, some people on this blog pile all of the city's problems on the school and the players, which is so unfair. Go to the Univ of Penn, outside the school it's a war zone, Columbia, etc. there are tons of schools in inner cities, each has a mission. Take a player like Holman, he had problems in HS, at IU yet somehow he got through Detroit, and there is no doubt he is better for the experience, and is that not a schools mission? As for the game, Detroit came out and had a plan that Valpo would not beat them by the 3, they had 20 3's the first 2 games, so Valpo took it to the paint, and it was working, Detroit adjusted at half time and that adjustment worked for them second half. people say more games are won in the locker room at half time, than anyother place, well clearly Detroit won the half time, maybe instead of taking it out on a 19 year kid who let his joy turn into a ill advised dunk, maybe Valpo fans should look to it's young coach, this game will help him learn faster. JR's dunk didn't change a thing, it may have hunt Valpo fan's feelings, so be it, the game was lost on the court, last night the better team one.
Well yes, the better team on 3/6/12 won. Everyone has always said Detroit is more athletic than us, which they always showed each time out. They finally put it together in a game against us (had lost 5 in a row), and got good coaching against us. Honestly, Sr's adjustments won the game for Detroit, which really surprises us/me. We won 2 of 3 to be the better team on the year, but lost the one that counts, and that is all that matters. We played very poorly in the second half, and I think our timeouts were mismanaged as well. Bryce is usually good with this aspect, so I was surprised in how we wasted a few, that left us with no timeouts the last 5 minutes of the game.
Let's not get carried away and start suggesting Coach McCallum was a halftime genius. The transition in the game happened before halftime when KVW was injured.
When he left the court, Valpo had a 9 point lead, but within minutes the lead was down to 3 at the half. Kevin couldn't run or rebound in the second half the way he did in the first because of his injury. That had more to do with the shift in the second half than Detroit's adjustments. If anything, the Titans were inspired by the loss of Kevin's inside strength (as well as Ryan's weakness due to illness that seemed to put him off his game some), which gave them confidence in the second half.
Of course, credit goes to them for taking advantage of the situation, but McCallum did not suddenly turn into a great coach during the 15 minutes of halftime, and I will take Drew over McCallum as coach anytime.
It was not hard to hear derogatory cheers and chants from the UDM student section. Most fouls garnered a Bullsh*t chant for starters. This lovely article seems to speak even more highly of the representatives of UDM at Valpo last night:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html)
is it fair to judge the whole university and sports program based on the actions of one player, and a handful of students? No. But it's the loud minority that often ruin things for everyone.
Quote from: valpotx on March 07, 2012, 12:49:51 PM
Quote from: nymike on March 07, 2012, 12:20:24 PM
I'm not a Valpo fan, but I do like the program, and always wish it well, The game on ESPN last night was great and did alot for the league, Valpo and Detroit nationally, since many of us out there in basketball land are Butler-ed out, it's nice to have two teams like Valpo and Detroit represent the league. As for JR's dunk, he's a kid, and a pretty good kid at that, he went to a outstanding HS (Detroit Country Day) got Dean's List grades, and comes from a wonderful normal family. If there were more kids like him in the counrty maybe we'd be in better shape. The Univ of Detroit has been and is a outstanding school, one that Valpo should model itself after. For Valpo fans to blast the school and team because it's in Detroit is like blasting Valpo because it's near Gary. You people need to grow up, the truth is if you had the chance you'd take JR on your team in a heartbeat, and he'd do for Valpo what he's is doing for Detroit. You people need to listen to him speak, he is a bright, class young man, and the league should be proud that he will be the face of the league the next 2 years. I for one enjoyed seeing him work so hard and win the game for his school, his efforts against you, CSU and YSU are classic, would you people be happier if he flipped the crowd like the Super Bowl half time show? Why is Detroit any worst then other inner city schools, have you visited USC lately.
Enjoy your NIT run, I hope to see your team in the Garden, it's something your players will remember for ever, they say Detroit may play Michigan State the first round, you need to root for Detroit to "pay back MSU for taking your ticket to the big dance this year, player Wood.
I agree that Detroit provides a good education, but don't say that we should MODEL ourselves after the school. We are consistently ranked higher than UDM in the various rankings out there, with UDM being 23 to our 4 in the most recent US News & World Report for the Midwest. That means both schools are good, but not that we have to model ourselves after the school. No one is bashing UDM's educational merits, so please don't take it that way.
Let's model our basketball program after this:
Quote from: DCBaller on March 07, 2012, 11:39:38 AM
wh - Since we are on the topic of "class," do you really think it's fair and classy to refer to another man as "sleaze" without a single fact to back up that opinion? And for what cause? I think your comments say more about you than they do Ray McCallum.
Here's a few things you obviously already know about your own program and have chosen to close your eyes to, but for some of our own naive fans:
Accusation of player tampering directed toward McCallum by IU Coach Crean re. Holman transfer to Detroit – believes Holman was "coached up" on what to say:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3388282 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3388282)
Accusation by Oakland Coach Kampe that Detroit reneged on a scheduling agreement:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/13/AR2010061303909_2.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/13/AR2010061303909_2.html)
Accusation of player tampering directed toward McCallum by WMU re. transfers of Lamarcus Lowe and Juwan Howard, Jr. – refuse to play Detroit in future
Some unhappy with Detroit's talent infusion - http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/ray-mccallum (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/ray-mccallum)
Detroit freshman Boutte arrested in Oct. for possessing stun gun and minor in possession of alcohol – never suspended:
http://annarbor.com/news/crime/college-basketball-player-arrested-with-stun-gun-outside-ann-arbor-bar-police-say/?cmpid=NL_33_block_headline (http://annarbor.com/news/crime/college-basketball-player-arrested-with-stun-gun-outside-ann-arbor-bar-police-say/?cmpid=NL_33_block_headline)
The fact remains that immediately before coming to Detroit Mercy McCallum was an asst. coach on two of the sleaziest basketball programs in recent NCAA history. If you think he had no knowledge of what was going on there, keep kidding yourself. It really doesn't matter. He's doing a good job on his own of displaying how NOT to build a respected basketball program. And we should model ourselves after you? What a joke. Enjoy it while it lasts, my friend.
There's none so blind as those who will not see...
Quote from: govalpogo on March 07, 2012, 01:37:54 PM
It was not hard to hear derogatory cheers and chants from the UDM student section. Most fouls garnered a Bullsh*t chant for starters. This lovely article seems to speak even more highly of the representatives of UDM at Valpo last night:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html)
is it fair to judge the whole university and sports program based on the actions of one player, and a handful of students? No. But it's the loud minority that often ruin things for everyone.
Let me save the apologists some time:
Said in a weak, milk toast voice:
Let's not paint these incidents with too broad a brush......Or......
How do we know that it wasn't angry Valpo fans trying to make it appear as though our visitors from the north did it? Does that pretty well cover it?
Had some friends with houses and cars vandalized last night. I cannot prove who did it or who exactly to blame. All I know is that everything associated with the past 24 hours has made it really hard for me to have the same respect for Detroit that I have for other league schools. Maybe it's only a few bad eggs on or off the court, but when I think "Detroit" or "Titans" right now, I find myself getting pretty riled up. Like govalpogo said, the loud minority has some power, and it's tough to imagine that I'll ever forget what happened.
I hope we can move past this soon. We will move on at some point, but not without a scar to remember for quite some time...
Quote from: nymike on March 07, 2012, 01:20:27 PMTake a player like Holman, he had problems in HS, at IU yet somehow he got through Detroit, and there is no doubt he is better for the experience, and is that not a schools mission? As for the game, Detroit came out and had a plan that Valpo would not beat them by the 3, they had 20 3's the first 2 games, so Valpo took it to the paint, and it was working, Detroit adjusted at half time and that adjustment worked for them second half.
I hope that Eli Holman turns out to be a productive and successful member of society. If he does he probably has his university and coach to thank for those accomplishments. I agree that as a coach there is nothing better than to watch a young man "see the light" and graduate from college. It is a wonderful thing to have a mother thank you for what you have done for her son. You are correct, this is one of the missions of the school and church.
Next subject, Ball pressure was the key to the Titan's second half resurgence. The initial pressure to drive the ball to the sideline and then trap was very successful after VanWijk was injured. Before the injury he was running layup drills on Detroit. How many uncontested layups did he have? There was no huge halftime adjustment, Detroit gained confidence at the end of the first half and this carried over into the second half as VanWijk became ineffective. As we saw in the regular season, when Kevin was out or not at 100% we had trouble running offense. If Detroit would have been made to adjust for Kevin's inside play of the first half then these traps would not have happened and more open outside looks would have fallen for VU IMHO.
Quote from: govalpogo on March 07, 2012, 01:37:54 PM
It was not hard to hear derogatory cheers and chants from the UDM student section. Most fouls garnered a Bullsh*t chant for starters. This lovely article seems to speak even more highly of the representatives of UDM at Valpo last night:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/valparaiso/police-detroit-fans-suspected-in-vu-area-vandalism/article_bd6179b2-86f7-5c85-9d6d-adab4f9c2c7a.html)
is it fair to judge the whole university and sports program based on the actions of one player, and a handful of students? No. But it's the loud minority that often ruin things for everyone.
If you watch the tape of the game on ESPN, the Detroit student section is prominently displayed a couple of times pointing at the VU players and chanting "F#@* You." Since this was a league tournament, their actions reflect poorly not only on Detroit but the whole league. Combine this with the other outrageous behavior, including criminal actions of vandalism and property damage, and I wonder what it would take for the Horizon League to at least open an inquiry about the school's responsibility for its students or disciplinary measures.
wh - those are some pretty weak links! Coaches are very competitive people. Of course Crean didn't like losing Holman to Detroit. But the fact is, Holman had a relationship with McCallum and views him as a father figure and wanted to follow him to Detroit. Crean tried to exert a sense of ownership over his new players, and Holman, to his credit, didn't want to stay and did what he needed to to get out. It's a case of sour grapes. Crean tried to bully Holman into staying, and then tried to bully McCalum with his very unprofessional comments and handling of the issue afterwards. Crean is a whiny little b*tch who I can't stand watching on TV for more than about 2 seconds.
Oakland and Detroit are rivals. Kampe and Perry Watson hated each other. So there is a history there that pre-dates McCallum.
If I was Western's coach, I'd be upset if two of my players left the program and went to Detroit too. But there is abslutely nothing in that article you linked to that suggests any wrong doing on McCallum's part. Juwan Howard Jr is a Detroit product - he wen to Detroit Pershing. Guys transfer back to U of D all the time after spending a year or two at other D-1 schools. I wouldn't want to schedule a team with two of my former players on it either - it would be a reminder to all of my school's fans that my program is dysfunctional enough that players want to leave and play elsewhere.
By the way, the word is milquetoast, not milk toast, lol.
to the detroit fan who posted a novel on our board, it was blatantly obvious that your fans were chanting "F*** you" at one point.
Also, saying that McCallum is a kid is ridiculous. Gordon Hayward carried himself with class while he was young and in the national stage, yet had time to have fun (created a rap that went viral for a while) without making himself, his family, his school, and his conference look awful.
If there was vandalism in Valpo, that is ridiculous, and only adds to the impression that Detroit made last night.
The rest of Detroit's team really didn't do anything to warrant being called "thugs", but the "team" definitely plays less of a team game of basketball than most other respectable programs in the league and nation.
Finally, TC28...you said something like "nice school spirit you got there" in reference to someone posting about our football program. Valpo's football program is to the university what Alaska is to the United States, what your small toe is to your body, etc...you don't really notice it. Those are actually bad examples, because in my opinion, and probably most other individuals at the university, the school would be better off without the program, whereas getting rid of Alaska would make for an imbalanced flag, as would losing a small toe.
Anyways, McCallum is a good basketball player, but didn't display himself with much humility last night.
Quote from: wh on March 07, 2012, 01:49:54 PMThe fact remains that immediately before coming to Detroit Mercy McCallum was an asst. coach on two of the sleaziest basketball programs in recent NCAA history. If you think he had no knowledge of what was going on there, keep kidding yourself. It really doesn't matter. He's doing a good job on his own of displaying how NOT to build a respected basketball program. And we should model ourselves after you? What a joke. Enjoy it while it lasts, my friend.
I'm not sure that either IU or Oklahoma could be called the "sleaziest" of basketball programs. Yes, Sampson was somewhat sleazy and Sampson and McCallum are both associated with those programs and their probation - although how much McCallum was involved is up for debate. As I recall, the problems were too much contact with recruits - calling and texting. Many programs do much more sleazy things. Sampson was a sleaze for doing it again, but hardly a sleazy thing to call a recruit too often.
I'm troubled by what McCallum Jr. did at the end of the game. I would hope better from our Valpo team, if the roles were reversed and we were on their court. I accept the apology. I hope that he learns from this, and wish the Detroit team well in the NCAA tournament. I think they have won 13 of 15, and are playing better. With the talent they have, I am sure they will represent the Horizon League well - and hopefully get a chance at a win in the last moments of their game.
1. I have zero problem with most of the posturing by jr. As Mark Lazerus would say, let them enjoy and feed off their good feats on the floor.
2. Allegedly, Edwards' problem was taunting, not celebrating. That's crossing the line, and yeah, if jr. did any of that then a double standard is being applied.
3. I absolutely have a problem with the last dunk. (a) I trust chef implicitely, (b) if he's mistaken then I have just as serious a problem with it for a different reason: not Act like you've been there before" but "Act like you still have work to do".
4. Just because this is the city of Detroit we're talking, I can't help wondering what kind of vandalism would have occurred if the Titans had lost. Sorry, but it's there. I'm not making an accusation, but I think it is entirely appropriate to ask the question.
5. I too have a very sour taste in my mouth - not because we lost, but because of the dunk and the vandalism.
6. Imagine Valpo running out the clock at Calihan Hall last night. With 3 seconds to go, Buggs suddenly flashes to the basket and dunks at the buzzer to make it Valpo 70 Detroit 50. Detroit residents report "462 Valpo Crusaders!!!" (not even very creative when you think about it). How would Titan fans be feeling right now? (P.S. That's assuming all this would actually happen.)
Quote from: covufan on March 07, 2012, 07:42:08 PMI'm not sure that either IU or Oklahoma could be called the "sleaziest" of basketball programs. Yes, Sampson was somewhat sleazy .....
Calling Sampson "somewhat" sleazy is like calling someone a little bit pregnant. You either are a slime ball or you aren't, and he is a slime ball. Like it or not, guilty by association. There is a reason that Samson isn't coaching in NCAA and never will again. Ray worked under and learned from him. Then he wrangled up a bunch of players and headed to Detroit, not before Holman threw a potted plant through Samson's window though. If you, as a coach, recruit those type of players....associate yourself with coaches like Sampson....and not TOTALLY condemn the actions of YOUR OWN SON ON YOUR OWN TEAM...then that will lead to your fans doing the types of things they did.
We are Valpo fans. Most of us because of Homer and or Bryce Drew. While some of us may chant and or rib...I am positive that we would write "219 Valpo Crusaders" all over cars in Detroit or any city for that matter.
Once Ray Jr graduates and the shine wears off "Dick Vitale Court", Ray Sr. will be gone from the Horizon League.
Like Sampson invented slez......OSU Football...........KY basketball...............Lousiville basketball........Alabama football...............USC everything..........Sampson was just a bit player. And like IU has a history of hiring Mary Poppins as basketball coach. For every Homer Drew's there must be 50 dirt bags out there.
Quote from: nymike on March 07, 2012, 09:20:05 PMLike Sampson invented slez......OSU Football...........KY basketball...............Lousiville basketball........Alabama football...............USC everything..........Sampson was just a bit player. And like IU has a history of hiring Mary Poppins as basketball coach. For every Homer Drew's there must be 50 dirt bags out there.
Which is why I am not a fan of the other 49 :thumbsup:
I have to say that I am more concerned about VU's performance in the 2H than RMc's theatrics.
Quite honestly, VU's performance left me very puzzled. We seemed to have far too many unforced, or milding forced turnovers against pressure. This is a team we beat twice during the season and we were outscored by 27 points during the most important 25 minutes of the season.
lowposter
Quote from: MattCarter on March 07, 2012, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: covufan on March 07, 2012, 07:42:08 PMI'm not sure that either IU or Oklahoma could be called the "sleaziest" of basketball programs. Yes, Sampson was somewhat sleazy .....
Calling Sampson "somewhat" sleazy is like calling someone a little bit pregnant. You either are a slime ball or you aren't, and he is a slime ball. Like it or not, guilty by association. There is a reason that Samson isn't coaching in NCAA and never will again. Ray worked under and learned from him. Then he wrangled up a bunch of players and headed to Detroit, not before Holman threw a potted plant through Samson's window though. If you, as a coach, recruit those type of players....associate yourself with coaches like Sampson....and not TOTALLY condemn the actions of YOUR OWN SON ON YOUR OWN TEAM...then that will lead to your fans doing the types of things they did.
We are Valpo fans. Most of us because of Homer and or Bryce Drew. While some of us may chant and or rib...I am positive that we would write "219 Valpo Crusaders" all over cars in Detroit or any city for that matter.
Once Ray Jr graduates and the shine wears off "Dick Vitale Court", Ray Sr. will be gone from the Horizon League.
To be consistent in this thread, if you are going to assess blame, make sure you do it the right way and put it squarely on the shoulders of whom it belongs. The dunk, the graffiti, and the rain that washed out my golf game today was directly caused by Keri Gaither. She hired McCallum.
::)
Give it up. Enough is enough on this thread, it needs to end.