Western Kentucky fired their head coach today. Check out her history over the past few seasons. Are we next?
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7662683/western-kentucky-hilltoppers-fire-mary-taylor-cowles-10-seasons-women-coach (http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7662683/western-kentucky-hilltoppers-fire-mary-taylor-cowles-10-seasons-women-coach)
We can only hope.
Well, this topic is sure to bring every flamer, troller and hater out of the woodwork to give their "expert" opinions on Keith.
Sorry folks, he isn't going anywhere.
I think 03 is right. It makes sense to keep KF who hasn't had a season over 500/winning season in the HL. Come on guys...it's about the effort he gives. Win or lose he tries and that is all we can ask for!
:crazy:
Quote from: jhnmttws75 on March 09, 2012, 09:37:07 PM
I think 03 is right. It makes sense to keep KF who hasn't had a season over 500/winning season in the HL. Come on guys...it's about the effort he gives. Win or lose he tries and that is all we can ask for!
:crazy:
Boy, you sure put a whole lot of words in my mouth there.
Quote from: jhnmttws75 on March 09, 2012, 09:37:07 PM
I think 03 is right. It makes sense to keep KF who hasn't had a season over 500/winning season in the HL. Come on guys...it's about the effort he gives. Win or lose he tries and that is all we can ask for!
:crazy:
You're not supposed to help out those flamers, trollers and haters that 03 is refering to, you know, himself. Of course his reaction will look like this ==> ==> ==> :o <== <== <==
Freeman and 03 have got to go. >:(
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 09, 2012, 08:43:04 PM
Well, this topic is sure to bring every flamer, troller and hater out of the woodwork to give their "expert" opinions on Keith.
Sorry folks, he isn't going anywhere.
I have a serious question for 03. Why do you think Freeman should stay?
I have laid out my reasons why I feel we need a change:
1. Last three years average wins = 9 Average finsih = 8+
2. Five year average wins in the HL = 11+, average finish = 7
Do we really need anything else?
3. Misjudgment or misuse of talent
4. Lack of creativity
What are the positives?
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 10, 2012, 07:34:59 AM
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 09, 2012, 08:43:04 PM
Well, this topic is sure to bring every flamer, troller and hater out of the woodwork to give their "expert" opinions on Keith.
Sorry folks, he isn't going anywhere.
I have a serious question for 03. Why do you think Freeman should stay?
I have laid out my reasons why I feel we need a change:
1. Last three years average wins = 9 Average finsih = 8+
2. Five year average wins in the HL = 11+, avrage finish = 7
Do we really need anything else?
3. Misjudgment or misuse of talent
4. Lack of creativity
What are the positives?
I'm not saying that he necessarily SHOULD stay. I'm just saying he WILL stay.
But, considering that he had 6 players most of the season, I don't think he did as awful a job as everyone thinks he did...there, I said it.
Quote from: setshot on March 10, 2012, 06:58:59 AM
Freeman and 03 have got to go. >:(
Deja Vu - Again I find myself agreeing with setshot!
Quote from: covufan on March 11, 2012, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: setshot on March 10, 2012, 06:58:59 AM
Freeman and 03 have got to go. >:(
Deja Vu - Again I find myself agreeing with setshot!
You just dug your message board grave by siding with the biggest blowhard in board history, setshot.
Interesting comments made after our season ending loss:
"We need to get two more kids, and we need to have some hard meetings with people," Freeman said. "The expectation needs to be laid in terms of what we expect. I have a clear idea of what we need to go forward, what we need to be and what we can't be. This season has taught me that."
If I count players correctly we stand at 11 returning with 3 already signed up for next year. Adding 2 means someone is leaving. The troubling part is the need to set expectations. We haven't done that before? It is reassuring that after 3 seasons of 8-10 wins he has a clear idea of what we need to be and not be. The not part is pretty easy.... continue as we have for the past 5 seasons. It should be interesting.
Quote from: IndyValpo on March 12, 2012, 10:15:29 AM
Interesting comments made after our season ending loss:
"We need to get two more kids, and we need to have some hard meetings with people," Freeman said. "The expectation needs to be laid in terms of what we expect. I have a clear idea of what we need to go forward, what we need to be and what we can't be. This season has taught me that."
If I count players correctly we stand at 11 returning with 3 already signed up for next year. Adding 2 means someone is leaving. The troubling part is the need to set expectations. We haven't done that before? It is reassuring that after 3 seasons of 8-10 wins he has a clear idea of what we need to be and not be. The not part is pretty easy.... continue as we have for the past 5 seasons. It should be interesting.
Glad to see you finally supporting Keith! The guy knows his stuff and battled hard against injuries this season. It does seem like you're gettin in on the bandwagon when the gettin's good, but that's okay. There's always room for more, friends! indyvalpo is on board, what say the rest of you???
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 12, 2012, 11:19:13 AMGlad to see you finally supporting Keith! The guy knows his stuff and battled hard against injuries this season. It does seem like you're gettin in on the bandwagon when the gettin's good, but that's okay. There's always room for more, friends! indyvalpo is on board, what say the rest of you???
Hold on there Batman...I am not on board...these comments do not give me a warm fuzzy....just confirms what I have saying that he has been lost for awhile. The good news...somewhere in 2012 he has "figured" it out. We appear to be stuck with him so time will tell.
I find it hard to believe that folks get on this board and beat up the coaching staff with limited information. Is anyone on here a professional coach? Can you recruit? Deal with replacing players that leave or are injured? What about attitudes of some players? Can you deal with parents that work through the administration instead of the coach? Do you watch the practices? Can you gauge the effort? Can you tell who has heart before you sign them? Most of these things are not made available for the public, so how do you know? The remainder of issues are not easy or everyone would be a head coach. Do you think it is easy to recruit at Valpo? Give me a break......and the coaches one also.
It is not a coach's right to continually be employed at a university, it is a privilege. Just like what happened with baseball after I graduated, if you don't produce for several years in a row, it is time to go. This is not HS, where teaching is more important than the actual coaching. All of the things you mentioned come with the territory. I was a coach (not head coach) for 2 years at a D-1 national championship semi-finalist a few years back, and you deal with all of these aspects. If you have 4 seasons in a row where you are barely making 10 wins in basketball, a change is needed. Yes, recruits fizzle out and fail to live up to expectations, but that is your (and the other coaches) responsibility to combat and adapt to. If I have several months in a row of bad performance at my current job, am I going to be kept around just because I have been here a long time? Absolutely not, and the same applies to college sports at the D-1 level.
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 01:04:05 PM
I find it hard to believe that folks get on this board and beat up the coaching staff with limited information. Is anyone on here a professional coach? Can you recruit? Deal with replacing players that leave or are injured? What about attitudes of some players? Can you deal with parents that work through the administration instead of the coach? Do you watch the practices? Can you gauge the effort? Can you tell who has heart before you sign them? Most of these things are not made available for the public, so how do you know? The remainder of issues are not easy or everyone would be a head coach. Do you think it is easy to recruit at Valpo? Give me a break......and the coaches one also.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Encore! Encore!
Quote from: valpotx on March 12, 2012, 01:38:30 PM
It is not a coach's right to continually be employed at a university, it is a privilege. Just like what happened with baseball after I graduated, if you don't produce for several years in a row, it is time to go. This is not HS, where teaching is more important than the actual coaching. All of the things you mentioned come with the territory. I was a coach (not head coach) for 2 years at a D-1 national championship semi-finalist a few years back, and you deal with all of these aspects. If you have 4 seasons in a row where you are barely making 10 wins in basketball, a change is needed. Yes, recruits fizzle out and fail to live up to expectations, but that is your (and the other coaches) responsibility to combat and adapt to. If I have several months in a row of bad performance at my current job, am I going to be kept around just because I have been here a long time? Absolutely not, and the same applies to college sports at the D-1 level.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 01:04:05 PMIs anyone on here a professional coach?
Well, I play one on this board!
Seriously, all those things you mentioned happen at every coaching situation in every sport. It is called part of the job. If the bottom line is more L's than W's you ultimately lose your job. It goes with the terrority. Most thinking people understand this.
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
there's an upward trend there. freeman has gone the other way. you can make excuses for him all you want, but even with deeper teams the last few years, he hasn't done much. kick him to the curb.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
there's an upward trend there. freeman has gone the other way. you can make excuses for him all you want, but even with deeper teams the last few years, he hasn't done much. kick him to the curb.
Homer was also barely .500 after returning in 2003.
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
There is a huge difference between coming into a program as a new coach, especially one that did not have a history of winning, and a coach that has been here 24 seasons. As nerd mentioned, Homer saw an uptick in wins and talent each year to start out his Valpo career. That gave the administration hope that the team was going in the correct direction. Keith's teams since the last NCAA tournament have been up and down, especially these last 4 years with bad results. It seems that each recruiting class announcement is met with nothing but accolades and amazement, but then once they are here and the season is done, he is making excuses for why they were not successful. There comes a time when excuses are no longer valid, and now is that time. Our 'new' AD had to make this same tough decision on my coach for baseball, and it has turned the program around. The same can be done for women's basketball with some new blood.
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 12, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
there's an upward trend there. freeman has gone the other way. you can make excuses for him all you want, but even with deeper teams the last few years, he hasn't done much. kick him to the curb.
Homer was also barely .500 after returning in 2003.
the program slid a bit after our last ncaa bid in 04, i will concede. but look at the upward trend it has taken on once again in the last 6 years:
06-07: 16-15
07-08: 22-14, in the first year in a new conference, with players nobody thought would succeed at the higher level, went to horizon tourney semis, went 1-1 in the cbi, knocking off a pac-10 team
08-09: rough down year, blame graduation, going 9-22
09-10: 15-17, a 6 game improvement over the previous year
10-11: 23-12, conference tourney semis, went to the cit. 8 more wins than the previous year.
11-12: currently 22-11, regular season champs, tourney finals, going to the nit, all with a first year head coach.
total: 107-91
now for the women's side.
07-08: 14-16
08-09: 16-14, beat purdue at the arc, almost beat nd at the arc (i was at both those games, actually.)
09-10: 9-21
10-11: 7-24, 50 pt loss to the irish at the arc.
11-12: 10-21, first time in 5 years they've won a first round tourney game.
total: 56-96
in theory, there's nowhere to go but up from how bad we've been. but i don't have the faith in freeman that was there just a few short years ago.
I can definitely say one of the things that has affected the women's team in the years denoted is the recruiting that Steve Bruce did for the women's team was severely lost. In each of the classes, since he's left, the women have had a lot of transfers, but were mostly brought in because of high school stats, but the way they played reflected in they weren't D-I players, or weren't willing to put in the work to be a D-I player. Also, we've had the "can shoot the lights out" recruits, but they weren't good at shot selection for the college level, couldn't play defense, or were just too slow for Freeman's system. I don't know who is the recruiting coordinator on the staff, but honestly, they aren't looking as closely at the player as they are the stats. Other than Greg Kirby, we don't have anyone else on this coaching staff that has been around long enough to have a real grasp on the system, and how to recruit for it. Sadly, even Kirby can't recruit for it, and I think that is a fault of his own. I'm not sure what system he's recruiting some of these players for, but it seems like he's recruiting soft players. We don't have any physical rebounders or strong ball handlers, like we had in the Amber Schobers, Jeanette Grays, Lauren Bechtolds, Jamie Gutowskis, Suzie Hammels, Baughers, and such from the early 2000s. These were all teams that had Steve Bruce as a part of the recruiting haul.
The only real problem that has affected our roster the last three years has been injuries to D-I players or the physical players we've needed to be competitive. We have that one critical injury, and the season is basically done.
At the end of the day, we have players that are questionable to get back in the mix next year, we've lost our 2 seniors, who were instramental in what success we had this season, we lost our best inside prospect we've had in years, making our inside game suspect at best, and we've recruited, and are bringing in 3 more guards, making it 6 or 7 guards for next year, unless we're cutting someone there. It's past time to weed out the players that won't contribute next season, bring in some inside help, and develop the players that are returning and showed, heart and grit this season. Effort is half the battle. I'm not certain that the incoming class will get us to the promise land. We need bigs, period. I'm not sure what the coaches have in mind, but it doesn't appear we are addressing our weaknesses, as we should be.
Caroline McCombs was the recruiting coordinator and the main reason many of those players came to Valpo. Not to say that Steve Bruce wasn't part of it. But the women's team needs a significant female presence on staff (preferably the recruiting coordinator). Coach Freeman needs someone that balances him out. Someone on staff that the players can connect with, on a personal level. They have had female GAs and lower assistants lately but we need someone that has authority and respect on staff. When you are recruiting good players (ones that are being recruited by the Big 10 and mid-majors not DII and DIII schools) then you need a coach that can build a personal relationship with those recruits. Coach Freeman is not the guy that builds that relationship with that recruit. And often those highly-recruited females choose a school over another school because of the personal relationship that has been built with one of the coaches. This doesn't happen as much in men's athletics but it happens all the time in women's sports. I don't want to see anyone lose their job so if Coach Freeman stays he needs to realize his weaknesses. Starting with hiring a strong authoritative woman coach to come in and recruit and be that go-to coach for the players.
Quote from: vubballfan on March 13, 2012, 08:30:00 AM
Caroline McCombs was the recruiting coordinator and the main reason many of those players came to Valpo. Not to say that Steve Bruce wasn't part of it. But the women's team needs a significant female presence on staff (preferably the recruiting coordinator). Coach Freeman needs someone that balances him out. Someone on staff that the players can connect with, on a personal level. They have had female GAs and lower assistants lately but we need someone that has authority and respect on staff. When you are recruiting good players (ones that are being recruited by the Big 10 and mid-majors not DII and DIII schools) then you need a coach that can build a personal relationship with those recruits. Coach Freeman is not the guy that builds that relationship with that recruit. And often those highly-recruited females choose a school over another school because of the personal relationship that has been built with one of the coaches. This doesn't happen as much in men's athletics but it happens all the time in women's sports. I don't want to see anyone lose their job so if Coach Freeman stays he needs to realize his weaknesses. Starting with hiring a strong authoritative woman coach to come in and recruit and be that go-to coach for the players.
Just asking a question here, but does Kelly Komara fit that description? She had a great career as a player and has coached at higher levels.
I don't know if Komara fits that description - this is her 1st year, maybe?! But she is not one of the top 2 assistants listed or the recruiting coordinator. If Freeman wants to elevate her and give her that chance than maybe she will. All I know is that the best recruiting classes the women's team has had during Freeman's time was when Caroline McCombs (mid 2000s) and Tracey Roller (late 1990s-early 2000s) were recruiting coordinator and i believe both were associate head coaches under him. Those were the teams that were highly successful and played in the post-season. And I believe it really comes down to the talent level of the recruits we bring in here.
Quote from: vubballfan on March 13, 2012, 08:30:00 AM
Caroline McCombs was the recruiting coordinator and the main reason many of those players came to Valpo. Not to say that Steve Bruce wasn't part of it. But the women's team needs a significant female presence on staff (preferably the recruiting coordinator). Coach Freeman needs someone that balances him out. Someone on staff that the players can connect with, on a personal level. They have had female GAs and lower assistants lately but we need someone that has authority and respect on staff. When you are recruiting good players (ones that are being recruited by the Big 10 and mid-majors not DII and DIII schools) then you need a coach that can build a personal relationship with those recruits. Coach Freeman is not the guy that builds that relationship with that recruit. And often those highly-recruited females choose a school over another school because of the personal relationship that has been built with one of the coaches. This doesn't happen as much in men's athletics but it happens all the time in women's sports. I don't want to see anyone lose their job so if Coach Freeman stays he needs to realize his weaknesses. Starting with hiring a strong authoritative woman coach to come in and recruit and be that go-to coach for the players.
And, as I have said from day one, this all comes full circle and back to Kirby
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 04:58:13 PM
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 12, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
there's an upward trend there. freeman has gone the other way. you can make excuses for him all you want, but even with deeper teams the last few years, he hasn't done much. kick him to the curb.
Homer was also barely .500 after returning in 2003.
the program slid a bit after our last ncaa bid in 04, i will concede. but look at the upward trend it has taken on once again in the last 6 years:
06-07: 16-15
07-08: 22-14, in the first year in a new conference, with players nobody thought would succeed at the higher level, went to horizon tourney semis, went 1-1 in the cbi, knocking off a pac-10 team
08-09: rough down year, blame graduation, going 9-22
09-10: 15-17, a 6 game improvement over the previous year
10-11: 23-12, conference tourney semis, went to the cit. 8 more wins than the previous year.
11-12: currently 22-11, regular season champs, tourney finals, going to the nit, all with a first year head coach.
total: 107-91
now for the women's side.
07-08: 14-16
08-09: 16-14, beat purdue at the arc, almost beat nd at the arc (i was at both those games, actually.)
09-10: 9-21
10-11: 7-24, 50 pt loss to the irish at the arc.
11-12: 10-21, first time in 5 years they've won a first round tourney game.
total: 56-96
in theory, there's nowhere to go but up from how bad we've been. but i don't have the faith in freeman that was there just a few short years ago.
Huh? 16-22-9-15-23-22 (last one was Bryce, not Homer)....Since when is 16-22-9-15-23 an "upward trend???"
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0tak1Vb4o1qdlh1io1_400.gif)
(That's me in the black shirt kicking vuweathernerd's post---the girl in the white shirt---into the trash like it deserves)
I think the only blips were that we didn't have the physicality or outside scorers of the NCAA years, other than that, the wins were more consistent or improved, minus that 9 win season, the record blip on the radar.
The 9 win season was simply due to Haanpaa leaving for a third tier Italy team, and Bouchie losing his mind
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 12, 2012, 03:55:28 PMHomer was also barely .500 after returning in 2003.
If Freeman was at .500 this discussion probably would not be taking place but in the last 5 years he is under .400 and .333 over the last 3. BIG difference.
It's time to put heart and emotions aside, and do what's right for the program, and the players that gutted it out and battle this year, injuries not withstanding. WE NEED HELP INSIDE!!! PERIOD! Is that being addressed? We need a bench we can count on for valuable minutes! Is that being addressed? We need to cut ties with the players that smart money says will not be able to contribute as we NEED them to next season. Is that being addressed? When it's all said and done, it doesn't matter who's at the helm if we aren't aggressively addressing the above issues. We have a good solid core, with no supporting cast. The ladies that left it all on the floor this season deserve to be rewarded for their efforts, in the form of HELP!! It's time to take the kid gloves off and get things turned around. If the injuries did one thing, they exposed to all exactly what our weaknesses are. Shame on us if we don't act on that info!
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 13, 2012, 09:32:25 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 04:58:13 PM
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 12, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on March 12, 2012, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Girlsbbfan on March 12, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
I'm sure glad Valpo kept Homer after he only won 4, 5, 5, and 12 wins from 89-90 thru 92-93. Look what we would have missed.
there's an upward trend there. freeman has gone the other way. you can make excuses for him all you want, but even with deeper teams the last few years, he hasn't done much. kick him to the curb.
Homer was also barely .500 after returning in 2003.
the program slid a bit after our last ncaa bid in 04, i will concede. but look at the upward trend it has taken on once again in the last 6 years:
06-07: 16-15
07-08: 22-14, in the first year in a new conference, with players nobody thought would succeed at the higher level, went to horizon tourney semis, went 1-1 in the cbi, knocking off a pac-10 team
08-09: rough down year, blame graduation, going 9-22
09-10: 15-17, a 6 game improvement over the previous year
10-11: 23-12, conference tourney semis, went to the cit. 8 more wins than the previous year.
11-12: currently 22-11, regular season champs, tourney finals, going to the nit, all with a first year head coach.
total: 107-91
now for the women's side.
07-08: 14-16
08-09: 16-14, beat purdue at the arc, almost beat nd at the arc (i was at both those games, actually.)
09-10: 9-21
10-11: 7-24, 50 pt loss to the irish at the arc.
11-12: 10-21, first time in 5 years they've won a first round tourney game.
total: 56-96
in theory, there's nowhere to go but up from how bad we've been. but i don't have the faith in freeman that was there just a few short years ago.
Huh? 16-22-9-15-23-22 (last one was Bryce, not Homer)....Since when is 16-22-9-15-23 an "upward trend???"
screw it, i'll bite. 9 to 15 to 23 is most definitely an upward trend. and a pretty good one at that. only a fool would say it's anything else. it shows how homer was able to make the necessary improvements to increase success. good coaches make improvements. bad coaches make excuses.
all excuses aside, would you rather have a coach do 16-22-9-15-23 or 14-16-9-7-10?
Quote from: Crusader03 on March 13, 2012, 06:45:28 PM
Quote from: vubballfan on March 13, 2012, 08:30:00 AM
Caroline McCombs was the recruiting coordinator and the main reason many of those players came to Valpo. Not to say that Steve Bruce wasn't part of it. But the women's team needs a significant female presence on staff (preferably the recruiting coordinator). Coach Freeman needs someone that balances him out. Someone on staff that the players can connect with, on a personal level. They have had female GAs and lower assistants lately but we need someone that has authority and respect on staff. When you are recruiting good players (ones that are being recruited by the Big 10 and mid-majors not DII and DIII schools) then you need a coach that can build a personal relationship with those recruits. Coach Freeman is not the guy that builds that relationship with that recruit. And often those highly-recruited females choose a school over another school because of the personal relationship that has been built with one of the coaches. This doesn't happen as much in men's athletics but it happens all the time in women's sports. I don't want to see anyone lose their job so if Coach Freeman stays he needs to realize his weaknesses. Starting with hiring a strong authoritative woman coach to come in and recruit and be that go-to coach for the players.
And, as I have said from day one, this all comes full circle and back to Kirby
So the whole program revolves around Kirby? I don't think so. Freeman hired Kirby, gave Kirby marching orders for recruiting, and gave the OK (directly or indirectly) on whom to give scholarships to, and is the final say on all matters VU Women's basketball. This all comes full circle and back to Freeman and Freeman only. Freeman may have an idea of changes needed, but I'm sure the AD does as well.