The Valparaiso Beacons Fan Zone Forum

GOVALPOGO asked the question -- so why not have a poll?  Poll ends in 14 days.

Even though the end of this season featured some friction between UDM and VU at the end, that doesn't make them a rival.  GOVALPOGO mentioned the contrast in styles, etc.  Still doesn't make them a rival, just have a lower level of respect for them.  Rivalries, IMO, have to contain a respect element.

Respect! I agree totally!  I think that's what our relationship with UWM has over our relationship with UDM. 

Honestly, this isn't really even open to debate.  With Keith now firmly entrenched at Wright State, they have become our top rival.  Next question, please.

No respect for Detroit after their player and fan behavior last year, so not a rival, just disliked.  We have played UWM tough, and they have played us tough over the last decade.  They also have some solid fan support, that does not vandalize our campus.  UWM it is!

Detroit.  We have played them 9 times in the last 3 years, and none of those 9 meetings have disappointed.  Detroit has won at Valpo twice during the Horizon League Tournament.  (2010 and 2012)  The most exciting game for Valpo was on February 6, 2010, holding on to win after blowing an 18 point lead with Mike Rogers making clutch shot after clutch shot down the stretch. 

Milwaukee could also be the new rival, as we have played some close games with them, including both this year.  This could easily be the best rivalry after what happened in 2010 when Brandon McPherson and Milwaukee's Ricky Franklin both made game winning shots in the final seconds and the series was split that year 1-1.

I was thinking about Wright State as well, but decided against that since they will be in the bottom of the HL this season.

i like the milwaukee possibility. we've had some interesting games with them over the last few years. and there's some level of respect between the two programs it seems.

Detroit! You don't have to respect someone to have a rivalry with them. A rivalry game is the one the players are circling on their schedule. Detroit has earned it.

This year it's without a doubt Detroit. Keep in mind that we could get several new additions next year though, possibly including Oakland.

Quote from: vuweathernerd on August 23, 2012, 05:03:57 PMi like the milwaukee possibility. we've had some interesting games with them over the last few years. and there's some level of respect between the two programs it seems.

Totally agreed.  Both games in 2009-10 were thrillers with last second game winners, the 2010-11 game at Milwaukee was a thriller even though Mike Rogers could make the game winning layup, and both games this past season were within a three point margin.  Five of the last seven Valpo vs. Milwaukee games have been within a three point margin.  That is why the Panthers and the Titans are the two frontrunners for Valpo's biggest HL rival.

I am totally anti Detroit so I think they are the "rival we beat the crap out of"...

I think a great and natural "respect" rivalry is UWM or CSU.

Out of conference, I love our rivalry with IPFW.  They play Valpo like its the Final Four...even after Fife left for MSU.  Its my love/hate game of the year.  I love seeing the game but hate that we can't write em off.

Quote from: vubballfan10 on August 23, 2012, 04:19:17 PM
I was thinking about Wright State as well, but decided against that since they will be in the bottom of the HL this season.

Wright State might surprise this year.  I don't think most HL fans have followed how they ended this year's recruiting class.  They added a top 40 JUCO guard, Jerran Young who signed with Nebraska in the fall but opted out of his LOI after they went through a coaching change.  They added PG Antonio Drummond, who picked WSU over offers from Kansas State and UC.  The final addition to their class was forward Steven Davis who picked WSU over an offer from UC. 

Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on August 24, 2012, 06:54:26 PM

Quote from: vubballfan10 on August 23, 2012, 04:19:17 PMI was thinking about Wright State as well, but decided against that since they will be in the bottom of the HL this season.

Wright State might surprise this year.  I don't think most HL fans have followed how they ended this year's recruiting class.  They added a top 40 JUCO guard, Jerran Young who signed with Nebraska in the fall but opted out of his LOI after they went through a coaching change.  They added PG Antonio Drummond, who picked WSU over offers from Kansas State and UC.  The final addition to their class was forward Steven Davis who picked WSU over an offer from UC.

Are you saying you think the Raiders will be ahead of UIC and Loyola, who both look to be improved this season.  Wright State does have many options in the backcourt, with Arceneaux and the newcomers, but they do not have proven returning scoring, something Loyola has with Averkamp and Hicks, and UIC has by bringing back 4 out of 5 starters plus Josh Crittle.


Also, Wright State recently lost Armond Battle who was sure to be one of the starters this season.  Their youth and inexperience will hamper them this year like it did last year, which is why I seem them at the bottom of the league.

Quote from: vubballfan10 on August 24, 2012, 07:34:39 PM

Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on August 24, 2012, 06:54:26 PM

Quote from: vubballfan10 on August 23, 2012, 04:19:17 PMI was thinking about Wright State as well, but decided against that since they will be in the bottom of the HL this season.

Wright State might surprise this year.  I don't think most HL fans have followed how they ended this year's recruiting class.  They added a top 40 JUCO guard, Jerran Young who signed with Nebraska in the fall but opted out of his LOI after they went through a coaching change.  They added PG Antonio Drummond, who picked WSU over offers from Kansas State and UC.  The final addition to their class was forward Steven Davis who picked WSU over an offer from UC.

Are you saying you think the Raiders will be ahead of UIC and Loyola, who both look to be improved this season.  Wright State does have many options in the backcourt, with Arceneaux and the newcomers, but they do not have proven returning scoring, something Loyola has with Averkamp and Hicks, and UIC has by bringing back 4 out of 5 starters plus Josh Crittle.


Also, Wright State recently lost Armond Battle who was sure to be one of the starters this season.  Their youth and inexperience will hamper them this year like it did last year, which is why I seem them at the bottom of the league.

Armond Battle lost his starting spot at the end of last season.  Wright State chose to not renew his scholarship in favor of bringing in Steven Davis. 
I absolutely think Wright State finishes ahead of the 2 Chicago schools.   They should be a better team than they were last season and they finished ahead of those 2 schools last year.

There is a strong alumni base in the Milwaukee area that can show up for games if a rivalry grows with UWM.  It's a shorter drive than Detroit (presuming that Chicago traffic isn't nutty), and our short history with Milwaukee has shown them to to be a team that will provide us a challenge.

Quote from: humbleopinion on August 25, 2012, 05:43:04 AM
There is a strong alumni base in the Milwaukee area that can show up for games if a rivalry grows with UWM.  It's a shorter drive than Detroit (presuming that Chicago traffic isn't nutty), and our short history with Milwaukee has shown them to to be a team that will provide us a challenge.

Add to the mix the influence and direction provided by their new AD Andy Geiger.  They will be a force in many ways.

Without question, our top two rivals are Valpo and Green Bay.

Cleveland State, I suppose, could make a case because of the theatrics of its coach.

Green Bay is obviously a longer-standing rivalry, but Valpo has brought considerably more fans.

On that note, it sounds as though the size of the old arena will allow for 25 comps for opposing fans. In truth, I don't think the Klotsche Center legitimately holds 3,400 people. Probably closer to 3,000.

Quote from: dylanrocks on August 27, 2012, 11:30:08 AM
Without question, our top two rivals are Valpo and Green Bay.

Cleveland State, I suppose, could make a case because of the theatrics of its coach.

Green Bay is obviously a longer-standing rivalry, but Valpo has brought considerably more fans.

On that note, it sounds as though the size of the old arena will allow for 25 comps for opposing fans. In truth, I don't think the Klotsche Center legitimately holds 3,400 people. Probably closer to 3,000.

I'd love to come check out the Klotsche Center on 1/12, but I'm guessing tickets will be hard to come by.

Over the entire 5 years of our existence in the HL, there's only one team on that list that fits the definition almost perfectly in my book.

Milwaukee:

1.  Jeter staring down Homer in 2008 at The Cell.
2.  Last year's taunting technical on Edwards.
3.  Almost every game has been a nail-biter, both score-wise and tension-wise.
4.  Any game that is a blowout at one point during the game always seems to end as a nail-biter.
5.  Regular season combined record over the 5 years? 5-5

If I could give a 2nd place vote, it would be Green Bay, but they have owned us a bit, and they've blown us out a couple of times.

I agree that for this year in particular, we will have Detroit on our radar screen, but over the long haul, they're not even close.

Seriously?  nobody is talking about Youngstown as a rival???   OH yeh, wait, nevermind...  I like this conversation... and I'm leaning toward the Panthers over the Titans... The Titans will be down after Mr. McCallum leaves (either of them) and I think UWM is in it for the longer term.  GB is just too far for the fan base to make the trip and make the road games truly exciting... remember Hinkle when VU brought down most of the 46383 zip code to watch those games.

Milwaukee's rivalry with Valpo is among the best things the league currently has going, but it's going to be awfully difficult for the Crusaders to have any fans on hand at the 3,000-seat bandbox known as the Klotsche Center.

Detroit. Private, similar size, similar academics, reasonable geography, Lutheran-Catholic thing, last year's regular-season and tournament champs. Should be among best teams in the league the next two-three years, which will establish rivalry regardless.

Quote from: Pathfinder on August 29, 2012, 10:02:10 AMShould be among best teams in the league the next two-three years.

I'm really not sure about this.

Nick Minnerath, Doug Anderson, Jason Calliste and possibly Ray, Jr. will all be gone after this season. Maybe Ray, Sr. as well.

Ray Jr. is going to stick around to play with Brundidge, his old AAU buddy.  The two of them could do some serious HL damage.

Quote from: dylanrocks on August 30, 2012, 10:17:28 AM

Quote from: Pathfinder on August 29, 2012, 10:02:10 AMShould be among best teams in the league the next two-three years.

I'm really not sure about this. Nick Minnerath, Doug Anderson, Jason Calliste and possibly Ray, Jr. will all be gone after this season. Maybe Ray, Sr. as well.

Calliste is a senior academically, but a junior for eligibility purposes. If he and McCallum come back, it will be pretty easy to plug in Juwan Howard for Anderson, and they should remain very competitive. But yeah, if they lose McCallum, it will be a blow.

I'm not so sure that Calliste is a Junior eligibility wise.  It is possible that the 2009-10 season was a year of lost eligibility for him.


This is what is said for him on the Titan Athletics website.


2009-10:Did not participate in any games as he was enrolled in school meeting NCAA requirements.

Does anyone for sure know whether that means he is a Jr or Sr eligiblity wise because it never has been officially said that 2009-10 was a redshirt year?

Quote from: VULB#62 on August 23, 2012, 11:35:58 AM
GOVALPOGO asked the question -- so why not have a poll?  Poll ends in 14 days.

Even though the end of this season featured some friction between UDM and VU at the end, that doesn't make them a rival.  GOVALPOGO mentioned the contrast in styles, etc.  Still doesn't make them a rival, just have a lower level of respect for them. Rivalries, IMO, have to contain a respect element.

Really? You think Notre Dame respects Miami? Nope, the best rivalries have no respect for the other team.

ND and Miami are rivals, in a sense, I guess...but ND's true rivals are USC and Michigan

 Michigan is Ohio State's rival.  USC maybe, but probably Navy.  They play them every year!  ;)

Good point 72. Some rivalries are one sided.  Team A thinks they have a rivalry with Team B.  Team B has their own rivalry with Team C.  ND plays Miami for the money and the TV drama that spurs ratings and the money.  Sure they hate each other, but it's not a rivalry -- largely, IMO, because the respect element is missing (and the history is comparatively short).  And despite the fact that BC and ND are the only FBS Catholic universities, Frank Lahey coached at both, and BC of late had won a few games at ND's expense, only BC thinks its a rivalry.  Is USC's true rival ND or UCLA?  Michigan State's rival is UM, but UM's is OSU (and OSU's is UM).

IMO Detroit is a recent phenomenon and once one or both of the McCallums are gone no one at Valpo would get psyched about a UDM game.  And while there is a dislike there now due to recent incidents, there just is no history and respect, while there is with UWM and, yes, Oakland if/when(?) they come aboard.  Will we enjoy beating Detroit?  Sure, I'm thinking the satisfaction might be of a different ilk.

I don't think any of the teams listed will be more of a rival than Oakland if and when they join the Horizon League, which I believe will happen soon, so I will wait until Oakland is an option before I vote.

What is unique about Oakland from a historical standpoint to make it an immediate rival?  Valpo has been conference mates with Green Bay, Cleveland State and UIC  longer than it has with Oakland.  The only thing that Oakland brings is a more recent history with us in the Mid Con – a history though that VU shares with seven other members of the conference. 

I don't think there's a right answer to this question.  Some of the old timers here may always consider Butler as the ultimate rival.  Some of the moderately aged fans might consider Wright State as the main rival because of the split.  Some of the newer fans may consider UWM or Oakland (when they join) as the rival.  Since no one has picked them, I'll go with both CSU and UIC since we founded the AMCU-8 with those guys.

Quote from: milanmiracle on September 01, 2012, 01:04:27 AM

Quote from: VULB#62 on August 23, 2012, 11:35:58 AM
GOVALPOGO asked the question -- so why not have a poll?  Poll ends in 14 days.

Even though the end of this season featured some friction between UDM and VU at the end, that doesn't make them a rival.  GOVALPOGO mentioned the contrast in styles, etc.  Still doesn't make them a rival, just have a lower level of respect for them. Rivalries, IMO, have to contain a respect element.

Really? You think Notre Dame respects Miami? Nope, the best rivalries have no respect for the other team.

Not sure I agree.  IMO, there is actually a ton of respect between Miami and FSU, and that rivalry when both teams are dominant is one of the best in the nation with a sprinkling of some historical mystique (see Wide Right I, Wide Right II, Wide Right III, Wide Left I).

Quote from: StlVUFan on August 27, 2012, 03:10:47 PM
Over the entire 5 years of our existence in the HL, there's only one team on that list that fits the definition almost perfectly in my book.

Milwaukee:

1.  Jeter staring down Homer in 2008 at The Cell.
2.  Last year's taunting technical on Edwards.
3.  Almost every game has been a nail-biter, both score-wise and tension-wise.
4.  Any game that is a blowout at one point during the game always seems to end as a nail-biter.
5.  Regular season combined record over the 5 years? 5-5

If I could give a 2nd place vote, it would be Green Bay, but they have owned us a bit, and they've blown us out a couple of times.

I agree that for this year in particular, we will have Detroit on our radar screen, but over the long haul, they're not even close.

1. Jeter didn't like that Homer, up by 9 points with the ball and our defense backed off with only 10 seconds left, called timeout. The game is over, I don't fault him for that at all.
2. Edwards was being a major d-bag. I moonlighted in the student section that game (they asked me, had to bring back the booming voice of reason) and could clearly see Bryce trying to give him a stern talking to in the timeout before the tech.
3. Seriously, there's been like...2 of the games that were no-doubters heading into the final 5 minutes.
4. 2010-11 game at Valpo wasn't.
5. Spooooooky :)

This is why I thnk Valpo is a bigger rival for Milwaukee in the long term than Green Bay.

1. The high percentage of the Valpo community (alumni, students, etc.) that comes from Milwaukee and the greater Milwaukee area.
2. The traveling fan bases - Valpo always travels here, we always travel there.
3. The stakes always seem higher than with other teams.  Even when we'd play teams higher in the standings, it seemed like we had more on the line against VU.
4. Milwaukee shouldn't be in the same conference as Green Bay, and should distance itself. I'd like to attach ourselves at the hip with Valpo much like Dayton and Xavier have done.
5. Detroit's a flash in the pan that will fade when the McCallum's are gone.  CSU will return to being CSU when Gary Waters (61 y/o) retires. In case you didn't know, they sucked.  Green Bay will never be able to keep Wardle, once they have fleeting success he'll get hired away by a school that can afford to pay him more than $133,000 in school money - 70k comes from donors who could flip the switch at any time. Milwaukee is always going to be here. When Jeter is gone, we're still going to be the school of 30,000 with the $200 million endowment and big basketball budget. We moved from Bo Ryan to Bruce Pearl to Rob Jeter without a hiccup.  I mean seriously, we've got the absolute worst facilities situation in D-I outside of Fordham, and we still do better over time than Detroit, who has a storied on-campus facility of ample size and no issues with finding practice time.

If Milwaukee is Michigan, Valpo is Ohio State. Green Bay is Michigan State.

4.  I forgot about that game ;)

On 1&2, you needn't explain any more.  I wasn't in defend mode.

Quote from: StlVUFan on September 03, 2012, 02:56:29 AM
4.  I forgot about that game ;)

On 1&2, you needn't explain any more.  I wasn't in defend mode.

I know, I just wanted people here to know there's two sides to every story.

Quote from: VULB#62 on September 01, 2012, 12:32:25 PM
Good point 72. Some rivalries are one sided.  Team A thinks they have a rivalry with Team B.  Team B has their own rivalry with Team C.  ND plays Miami for the money and the TV drama that spurs ratings and the money.  Sure they hate each other, but it's not a rivalry -- largely, IMO, because the respect element is missing (and the history is comparatively short).  And despite the fact that BC and ND are the only FBS Catholic universities, Frank Lahey coached at both, and BC of late had won a few games at ND's expense, only BC thinks its a rivalry.  Is USC's true rival ND or UCLA?  Michigan State's rival is UM, but UM's is OSU (and OSU's is UM).

IMO Detroit is a recent phenomenon and once one or both of the McCallums are gone no one at Valpo would get psyched about a UDM game.  And while there is a dislike there now due to recent incidents, there just is no history and respect, while there is with UWM and, yes, Oakland if/when(?) they come aboard.  Will we enjoy beating Detroit?  Sure, I'm thinking the satisfaction might be of a different ilk.

I'll politely disagree. As somebody who has family that went to ND and has friends on the faculty, I can assure you the Miami game is as big or bigger than the USC game. There is true distain for Miami and the only reason that series was cancelled in the first place was because it was becoming too heated with fights in the tunnels and quotes like this..."save Jimmy Johnson's ass for me" - Lou Holtz. The presidents of the university decided it was time for a break. Heck, the Miami bowl game even brought back the old Catholics vs. Convicts t-shirt...and I know this because I own one.  :)