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[name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL.]

A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert.  Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently.  i don't think that is a good thing.  Set some tough standards and adhere to them.

I think the confederation line is pretty solid. And I think Youngstown State is the biggest reason why (that and the League commissioner is mediocre at best). Take away YSU and you have nine schools that are focused on putting together a great men's basketball program.

They have tried to set standards in the past. Before you joined the conference, we passed a rule keeping arena capacity above 5,000. That rule was pointed at us so we wouldn't go back to the Klotsche Center on campus (you know, until Lecrone needed the MVC off our scent. I'd explain but it sounds crazy and it's an extremely long story. I'd love to tell some of you guys in person over some beers). So there is some precedent. But I think we need standards for scheduling and I think we need a conference challenge to make scheduling easier on the conference.

LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.

LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.

Oakland and NKU will both be better than Loyola in the long run. They were at best a middling Horizon League team. I think the only thing I could see you guys really liking about them is that they are private and in close proximity. But they're also a Catholic school, like most of the A-10, not Lutheran.

The move for Valpo here was mutually beneficial. And I think you're doing the athletics program a disservice by just assuming Valpo is Valpo and you were better than us when you were in the Summit. The people who have made up that department - administrators, coaches and players - elevated their game to the better conference and they have done so beautifully. The Valpo of 2007 wouldn't have had the run of the last 4 years that the Valpo of 2015 has had. You guys have done much better.

You know who hasn't done better? The Summit. In our worst (tied) year for RPI since 2000, we finished five spots ahead of the Summit in their second best year for RPI since 2000. So I don't know what you mean. We're just a better conference top to bottom, and travel is so much easier. What conference would you be in where you'd have closer opponents? The Big Ten I suppose. There you'd have more opponents closer to you. See if they'll take you haha.

If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.

If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years. 

The obvious choice in the Valley.  Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least.  We could replace that midwest presence.  Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball.  We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.

It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level.  The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!

Here's the problem with your post. You say the obvious choice is the Valley. Of course it is! The Valley is also the obvious choice for Milwaukee, UIC and maybe even Wright State! But that's predicated on the idea that your school is going to be pursued by the Valley. So far, the Valley isn't biting. You're available. We're available. In my conversations with contacts in the MVC (both schools and office), the plan for now is to stand pat. They don't see anybody as a program that can come in and compete for at-large bids perennially - and without that capacity, why split the conference pie with two more schools? They have told me they'd be adding two, not one, if they were to add. I also know that Belmont balked when the MVC talked to them after Creighton left.

I don't buy that the A-10 is a real option for Valpo. Is it mostly private? Yeah. But those private schools are Catholic, not Lutheran. You guys might as well be Yeshivah University to the Roman Catholics. Well, not to Davidson, which is also a Protestant college (and only 700 miles away!).

Adding teams makes no sense when they stand at 14. When they drop from that number, it's going to be because they lose Saint Louis and Dayton to the Big East - we all know that's the only expansion the Big East is going to do. When that happens, Valpo's closest conference opponent would be Duquesne, a team that's only 420 miles away.

Think about that. If the A-10 would come knocking on your door, here's the distance you'd be traveling:

Valpo
to Davidson - 702 miles
to Duquesne - 420 miles
to St. Joe's/La Salle- 719 miles
to Fordham - 750 miles
to St. Bonaventure - 495 miles
to George Mason - 661 miles
to George Washington - 656 miles
to VCU/Richmond - 759 miles
to UMass - 875 miles

Well now. That's even crazier than I thought. For kicks let's check out the Horizon League:

to UIC - 56 miles
to Milwaukee - 153 miles
to Green Bay - 272 miles
to Detroit - 247 miles
to Oakland - 264 miles
to Cleveland State - 305 miles
to Wright State - 269 miles
to Youngstown State - 362 miles
to NKU - 270 miles

The FARTHEST Horizon League opponent is 58 miles closer to Valpo than the CLOSEST potential A-10 school. If you DOUBLE the distance to YSU, there's still half of the A-10 that's further. In short, the distance would keep the A-10 from being even feasible for Valpo. That is, unless they were to bring several midwest schools in, at which point the A-10 would become a superconference, far too big for its own good (and worse overall than the Horizon League as it stands at 10).

It's us or the Valley. I mean, you could theoretically go back and own the Summit, but I think you guys win enough here to stick around. Face it - we're in this together. And if the MVC decides it's going to add schools, it's going to be you and us. But I don't think that's happening any time soon, so let's focus on making the Horizon League better. And the first thing we have GOT to do as a conference is recognize that Youngstown State is an incredible burden on the conference's biggest sport, so we have to end them.

I think the best thing we can do right now is discuss how we, as fans - many of us have some decent influence - exorcise us of the RPI anchor-demons that are the Youngstown State Penguins. I guarantee you if you talk to Bryce Drew, that would be the best thing he could come up with as far as making Horizon League membership better. I've talked to plenty of coaches who agree.

So guys, how do we get that done? How do we rid ourselves of YSU? Feel free to tweet at me too (@PantherU)

You gotta wonder what Bryce has gotta do to get hired. Didn't it take his brother like...5 minutes to get a high-major gig?

[6-26]

Hope we do the same.  to get to the next level, our kids need better challenges than we've given them in the past.  If Kampe can adjust like this, we should be able to to do likewise.

The problem is that Valpo looks considerably better than Oakland on paper. That is a big deal to high-majors looking at scheduling the Crusaders, who may want to wait for Valpo to have a down year before stepping in the ring with them.

I think OU put together a balanced, solid schedule. I was hoping they'd get around to doing that.

w Binghamton -- 6-26, 5-11 America East

w Chicago State -- 8-24, 4-10 WAC

w Eastern Michigan -- 21-14, 8-10 MAC (CBI Opening Round)

w Non-D1

We'd complain if we had these teams at home.

You would? A sampling of Valpo home games over the past three years:

Maine - 3-27
Arkansas Pine Bluff - 12-20
Ball State - 6-23
Loyola Marymount - 12-19
James Madison - 11-20
UCF - 11-18
Georgia Southern - 12-19
Northern Illinois - 4-25
Chicago State - 7-21
Bethune-Cookman - 12-20
IUPUI - 4-26

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know what you're talking about. Mid-major scheduling is extremely difficult, no more so than when you are a successful mid-major (50-150 RPI or better). I'm sure there are people on this board who are as connected to Valpo hoops as I am to Milwaukee hoops, so hopefully they can share some examples. Just this offseason we've had two Big Ten teams negotiated for buy games back out on us once they took a real look at our roster. I imagine many high-majors (or at least those who don't have the stones) would look at Valpo, who looks even better than Milwaukee on paper, and not even entertain the idea of a game.

Low-major games and non-D-I games are the nature of the beast. If you ask me, I'd rather play another non-D-I game that wouldn't hurt our RPI instead of a low-major like IUPUI, but you have to take what you can get and D-I victories are part of the deal.

I understand that you guys had such a short time with Loyola, so some of you might not be fully in on it.

Loyola has no future as a dominant program. At no point will they become a perennial NCAA tournament team. This is true whether they were to stay in the Horizon League or kept their move to the MVC. There's nothing there for them. Not unless they start cheating like crazy, which I suppose isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Outside of Youngstown State, is there any school in this conference where we can say that for sure? Milwaukee, Valpo and Detroit have all had sustained success in getting to the NCAA Tournament. Even Green Bay has, although it's 20 years in the rear view mirror.

Speaking of the rear view mirror: Loyola got to build the new athletics facilities because the grand majority of their donor base is reaching the end of their lives and a group of them got together to see if they can win before they die. It's grim but they openly talk about it. Over 85% of Loyola's fan base is over the age of 75. Once they're gone, Loyola is going to have to pull out some pretty crazy stops just to keep themselves sucking in air. Ramblermania (their board) is a shadow of what it once was because half of the regular posters have died. It's sad, but Loyola hasn't been relevant on a national stage since the 80's, and these old folks that make up the brunt of their fan base? They were students and young alumni in 1963.

Cleveland State is headed for some pretty rough Waters (heh). They still have the build-a-major, which will be used by whatever coach eventually replaces Waters. Oakland got themselves up to speed pretty quick in the Horizon, quicker than you guys. Wright State had a historic level of injuries last season - that's not happening again. You're gonna be surprised with UIC - now that they're about to become the biggest bandit program in the H-League, they could be real good in a couple short years.

I was pretty adamant from the beginning that NKU should be in our crosshairs and I'm glad we've got them. But they're still my second choice. My first choice is still Youngstown State shipping off to another conference. Perhaps the continued attrition in the CAA will cause them to come hunt for a football anchor. They do need a 10th team. I'd love for it to be YSU.

Get rid of the anchor and 16 becomes our basement. I still believe our ceiling is 8 or 9.

I did not begrudge Butler or Loyola for leaving the Horizon League, and I wouldn't be angry at you guys if Valparaiso left for the MVC. I only hope we get to go with you. While I was hunting for confirmation on NKU joining the Horizon League (still annoyed I couldn't quite get that one), I heard multiple people tell me that Belmont had rebuffed our advances - and also the MVC. It seems their President believes that Belmont does not benefit from a move up to the HL or even higher to the MVC. That's good. That leaves two openings if the MVC ever wants to head to 12. If they don't, we're   out of luck. So are you guys.

I get that message boards are a good place to let out frustration. As long as they're still a good place to exchange ideas and organize and energize fan bases. Let's worry about getting the whole conference better. Let's unite to push for the subtraction of YSU. Then let's talk about a 10th school that deserves membership.

I think OU put together a balanced, solid schedule. I was hoping they'd get around to doing that.

This is their last season as a provisional D-I.

They could register their worst RPI as a member of the Horizon League next season. Lost their only good players. It's going to be a   show.

But before the outrage, I'd take this report with a grain of salt. PantherU has no credibility whatsoever and has been notoriously wrong about Horizon League news in the past.

I love you too buddy

I wrote a little diddy on PantherU that is very similar to what has been said here and in Fran's post on the UWMFreak board:

http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-should-seek-all-challengers/

As far as how the league shakes out next year, I will say that in this league there are NO sure things. The closest thing to a sure thing is Valpo, and Oakland not too far after that. I know what we have coming in and what we have coming back, but as usual I try not to play it up too much. So I won't say things like I think we're going to own the Horizon League much because I know I'll get laughed out of the conversation. We also have a couple pieces to add (one won't play next season but walk-on and then get a scholarship after his transfer) so we're not set.

But things happen anyway. Valpo looks strong, but what kind of team will be on the court if they don't have one of the Walkers and Peters? That's the season Wright State faced last year. I don't care if you're Kentucky - take away a team's best player or 2nd best player and you have a completely different team. When we lost Arians for the year (he recovered from the injury and could have played beginning of December but he decided to redshirt), there was a big learning curve we had to deal with. Akeem Springs broke his hand during the Auburn game and was playing hurt through mid-January. See how mediocre we were because of it? Yet once Springs got back and we figured out how to play without Arians, we won 7 of our last 9. We almost beat you guys in the second game, and would have won 8 of 9. We'll be just fine. The point is that injuries happen, so predicting the order of finish is foolhardy.

ah, my man Jordan Aaron! 

20 points!!!

...

on 17 shots...

And again, the worst part is they used SEVEN players;

FOUR OF WHOM ARE SENIORS!!!

IT'S JUST GOING TO GET WORSE

AND ONE OF THE THREE RETURNEES IS JORDAN AARON

I love this whole thread, thinking of where we were two years ago. But the best is this post right here.

For those keeping score, I was in kindergarten in the 1992-93 school year. So I should have been aware of what was going on when we moved from the Mid-Con to the MCC.

I think we can go a long way by dropping YSU. That's enough of a boost right there.

Take Basketball out of the equation.   Look at their Track Facilities... Swimming / Diving.... look at the "momofalex" post on the "Track" topic.

Who cares? I'm sorry, I really am. And remember, this is coming from a guy who can't count how many track titles his school has because we keep adding to the pile.  Frankly, this is the hierarchy of sports in the Horizon League as they pertain to membership:

1. Basketball
2. Basketball
3. Basketball
4. Basketball
5. Basketball
6. Basketball
7. Basketball
8. Basketball
9. Basketball
10. Basketball
11. Basketball
12. Basketball
13. Baseball
14. Soccer
15. Volleyball
16. Basketball
17. Basketball
18. Basketball

I love having a ton of titles in volleyball - we have a regular season or tournament title in every year outside of 2012 and 2014 going back to 1997. Does it matter that the Horizon League is a total pushover in the sport? Not in the slightest. It doesn't matter how well those sports play, it matters THAT they play. That's all. Baseball is a fun sport and you can get some notoriety for going to the College World Series, but the regular season is wholly irrelevant on any national stage. Soccer is a sport that I follow - I've been to several other schools and traveled as far as Notre Dame for the NCAA Tournament. But it's also irrelevant.

In picking members of THIS conference, the only thing that should matter is basketball. In a conference with 9 members, 8 are basketball-first. One is not. That needs to be rectified.

Remember too that according to BigD the conference accepted YSU only after Valpo turned them down.  Just like a bad hire, the people who brought them in share responsibility for their failure to return any value to the conference.

This is the first I remember hearing this.  Is it credible?  Why would Valpo turn down the HL?  Were the arguments about geography and increased competition any less true back then, compared to when we _did_ join?  Maybe the Midcon wasn't yet _as_ spread out as it became.  But, still...

What I had heard was that the athletic director at the time (2000-ish) at Valpo was the father of the Mid-Con commissioner, or was the commissioner the father and the AD the son...?  You guys would know that better than me. Anyway, that's what I've always known as the reason that Valpo stayed in the Mid-Con at the time. We didn't go for Oakland because they were brand new in D-I, and so they moved to Youngstown. It's a joke, and the universities should have the stones to throw them out of the conference. But I've had long-running arguments with people who have worked directly for the conference who maintain, after all this time, that YSU is an asset to the conference.

I wholeheartedly believe we would do more justice for the Horizon League by booting YSU and going to eight schools than adding ANYONE outside of Belmont or Northern Kentucky. YSU is such a drag on the conference RPI it's sad. YSU's RPI as of Saturday, they are 282 or 8th in the conference. Let's go back, shall we?

2014 - 242, 8th HL
2013 - 188, 6th
2012 - 171, 7th
2011 - 295, 10th
2010 - 271, 9th
2009 - 239, 8th
2008 - 227, 9th
2007 - 173, 6th
2006 - 305, 9th
2005 - 321, 9th
2004 - 259, 8th
2003 - 280, 9th
2002 - 309, 9th

So, let's come up with some numbers here. In their 14th year as a member of the Horizon League, Youngstown State has been more than an RPI anchor exactly three times (2007, 2012, 2013). When I say anchor, that is to say a sub-200 RPI team that will drop your RPI considerably even if you blow them out. I have an example of YSU hurting us specifically. In the 2006 season, we played YSU in February when we were running away as conference champions. Here is the game link. We were beating them so bad, our lead was 100% safe by the first media timeout of the second half (Bill James game flow stat). YSU was so god-awful that a day after we beat them by 41 points, our RPI went from 44th to 72nd. It didn't recover (I believe we ended the regular season in the late 50s), and we drew an 11-seed in the tournament. Which was fine when we beat Oklahoma in the first round, but killed us in the second because we played Florida, who went on to win their first of back-to-back NCAA titles.

YSU has finished as one of the two worst teams in the conference for RPI NINE TIMES out of a possible 14.

YSU has been like this for a long time. Where would Valpo's RPI be if they didn't have two Youngstown State games on there? Significantly higher. And the same could be said for every team. In 2012 and 2013, they were spearheaded by Kendrick Perry and Damian Eargle, who are far and away two of their best 4 or 5 players EVER. What's the chances, with their high school gym and miniscule budget, fossil head coach and poor, dilapidated metro area, of them coming even close to getting two players like Perry and Eargle at the same time again?

Keep in mind, that in those two years, their best years in the Horizon League outside maybe 2007 (Jeter and Waters were both taking over empty cupboards, Watson was winding down at Detroit), THEY STILL FINISHED IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE CONFERENCE. Not once have they ever been a successful Horizon League program. Ever. They have won FOUR conference tournament games in the Horizon League. EVER. We won FOUR games LAST SEASON in the tournament! Valparaiso has won SEVEN conference tournament games and you've been in the conference HALF the time! UIC, who has done absolutely nothing since 2004 in the Horizon League, has SEVEN tournament victories since then!

Youngstown State is such a HUGE drag on the conference, I wonder how they're still in the conference. Then I remember that Jon Lecrone is the commissioner, he was the commissioner when we recruited YSU, so removing them would be a huge drop on his legacy. I wish he wouldn't see it that way, but I'm sure it is. Lecrone's legacy in college sports history is the Horizon League tournament format, which took this conference from being a pushover on the national stage to being one of the best mid-majors around. That's a huge contribution, and I wish he'd get past that and recognize we need to cut our losses with Youngstown State.

Please. For the love of this conference, save it by pushing the conference presidents and chancellors to vote YSU off the island. I don't care about their women's indoor track title. This conference is about basketball.

Yes, but they have other sports besides men's basketball.  They are decent in track? 

If we gave them the boot, it would take two years to find a replacement....

Northern Kentucky, still in their D-I infancy, will be a better program within 3 years in basketball and baseball. Our limited baseball membership is the only thing that would give me pause in booting YSU, but give me NKU and another baseball school and we'll have a cushion.

He's been trolling (is it trolling if someone from inside the program is promoting it?) twitter lately with how Petros and Felder are the best players in the Horizon.

[tweet]569696578895810561[/tweet]

Gotta be in the program. That godawful #wearthebear hashtag is only used by AD scrubs at OU. Still, isn't that their job? Shouldn't they be doing spin?

Great game yesterday. Go gettem in the tournament.

I've posted on PantherU about 15 times that we should drop YSU from the conference. Since 2001 when they joined, they haven't been a total drag on the RPI exactly ONCE. Their best year ever, they finished 5th out of 9 teams. That's right; they've never, never, ever ever been a help to the Horizon League.

While they have very good, knowledgeable and excellent posters such as TitleBU, irishdawg and Staxawax, the sheer amount of pompous idiots on their message board is staggering. I guess that comes with success - the influx of Butler fans with no knowledge of the conference or mid-majordom grew tenfold when they went to the title game the first time.

Which is fine. I just wish I could select posters and only read what they write. Because the BU board has plenty of worthy posters that aren't pompous jackasses.

blackpanther, 5th is very generous, especially for a team who is ineligible for the 2015 NCAA Tournament because they couldn't meet APR standards. It does mean that UWM can't even be in the Horizon League Tournament field, correct?

You misunderstand me. WH was talking about how he may have been a little hard. I think a preseason ranking of 5 is the ceiling, and we could be picked from anywhere between 5th and 8th.

Surprisingly, Valpo is one of three schools I don't have any comments from. If you'd like, you can add your own. Have some fun with it! The CSU fans were particularly funny.

I don't think picking Milwaukee 5th is being hard at all. Our tournament run was based on a player who had an outstanding tournament and he's no longer here. Lost our top 2 scorers, #2 assist leader and #2 rebounder. We were 7-9 in conference last season. Fifth may be generous.

I can't believe the balls on Bob Kravitz, to come out and say that Butler "deserves better" than a guy who is on medical leave of absence...what a prick.

the Butler board is crazy

I wrote this on it a couple days ago: http://pantheru.com/2014/10/the-curious-case-of-tavares-sledge/

The *RETRACTED* part is about what WSU did on its website. Initially, they had removed Sledge from all former rosters on the website, so the only trace of him is on team photos and the PDF files for stats.  I didn't get a screen shot, so I retracted the part that pointed that out. If you want to get a good kick out of Big D's reaction, hit up the UWMFreak board or wait for him to come on here in a huff reacting to this post.

I don't know of any coach who brings in players he doesn't want to his program.