there is clearly a problem.
I don't know about all the players he has coming in but here are two:
Mallory Ladd, an Indiana All Star who finished second in the Miss Basketball voting
Jessica Carr, who is also an Indiana All Star, and has been named the Player of the Year for the second year in a row by the Noblesville County Times.
I know he has a couple of other All State honorees on the current squad. Last year was a mess for a few reasons including injuries and youth. I think it is time for our women's team to step it up!!
I obviously don't know his contract status or job security might be like, but if Valpo stays down in 2011-12, it can probably do nothing but hurt his chances to stay on as coach. Something has to happen next year (during or after the season) to give everyone related to this program the confidence that the team is heading in the right direction.
To quote the great Steve Spurrier: If you want to be successful, you have to do what everybody else does and do it better—or you have to do it differently.
I don't know how much his coaching has to do with it, but for the most part, since their last postseason trip in 2004, Keith Freeman's coaching staff hasn't been consistent. I mean before all of these current changes, his most consistent assistant coach was Steve Bruce, who is now at IUSB. After Steve left for IUSB, the coaching changes trickled down, and everyone started to leave for either better jobs, or places where they could get some more responsibility and advancement. Sure, maybe most of the problem was money, but I don't want to dwell on that aspect. I think in most of our situation, besides the injuries and youth, many of our problems might be that we really don't have the height to dominate inside, the floor leadership in our point guard, and the lack of assistant coaches that can really coach our deficiencies? I want Coach Freeman to succeed, but I think it might mean that he has to ask a lot of more of his assistant coaches to coach, and not worry so much about where the pastures are greener?
Sure, vu72, we can run the laundry list of recruits and their high school accomplishments, but that's just what those accomplishments do, start the laundry list of expectations that some of these kids might never had to accept at their high schools because their conference opponents might not have been very competitive, and most of their deficiencies in offense or defense might be due to the inexperience/lack of talent in the opposing player they were matched up with. I honestly feel that I can't expect this team to do anything more than work on their game, win games, or find out what areas they need to improve on, and put in that extra work in practice/off-season to adjust those things they need to change, whether it is a fundamental, or something they need to do in Freeman's schemes to get on the court.
these are Indiana All Stars, evluated by a bunch of people at the top 40 workouts etc. These kids are not all conference at a 1A school playing against schools with 150 kids, they come from big schools and have played for big school state championship type teams.
Look, I like Keith and respect him very much as a person. sometime style is a problem and perhaps his style no longer works with today's kids--I don't know.
I also can't comment intelligently on the coaching staff other than to say that Greg Kirby has been on the staff for five full years and was the head coach at Valpo High for 16 years. No lack of experience there.
As I've said in the past, I believe the two players mentioned here will come in next season and make an emmediate impact. They bring to the team and the table, much we've been lacking. Mallory Ladd is the complete player - her inside game is about as good as I've seen, her scoring ability is reflected in her stats, and she is a great leader and motivator. Jessica Carr brings ball control, leadership, scoring ability, and her floor vision is impressive. She keeps her teammates engaged, and excels in assist. Both these players are a joy to watch, and very personable. I think their temmates will love playing with them, which was another issue I felt we had last season. It just looked like the chemestry wasn't there. I've seen on here many times that Freeman doesn't like to give a lot of minutes to his Freshman. I think you'll see that change in 2011 - 2012.
I am told that Skyler Gick may be done. Her back problems have gotten too painful for her to play. The university is trying to get her a medical hardship so that her scholarship does not count against them, at least that's what I've been told. I'm sorry, I thought she really came along late last year and was on the verge of becoming the point guard we thought we were getting when she came here. This is really too bad for a very personalble young lady.
That is a shame if true. I've watched Skyler play for quite a few years now. She's always been fun to watch. I wasn't aware of any medical issues she was having, but felt that we weren't seeing her best at Valpo. I hope she gets through this ok. I would have loved to see her compete with the incoming players next season.
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
there is clearly a problem.
I don't know about all the players he has coming in but here are two:
Mallory Ladd, an Indiana All Star who finished second in the Miss Basketball voting
Jessica Carr, who is also an Indiana All Star, and has been named the Player of the Year for the second year in a row by the Noblesville County Times.
I know he has a couple of other All State honorees on the current squad. Last year was a mess for a few reasons including injuries and youth. I think it is time for our women's team to step it up!!
So much negativity coming from you here VU72...Keith is a fantastic human being and a great coach and it is win-at-all-costs fanatics like yourself that cause us to lose perspective of what is really important at a school like Valpo. Go cheer for Michigan State or UConn or Coach Cal at Kentucky if you want a program that plays by these rules.
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 04:35:32 PM
Look, I like Keith and respect him very much as a person. sometime style is a problem and perhaps his style no longer works with today's kids--I don't know.
If you respect him so much, why blast him on an anonymous message board? How "respectful" is it for you to be trying to run Coach Freeman out of town?
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 03, 2011, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 04:35:32 PM
Look, I like Keith and respect him very much as a person. sometime style is a problem and perhaps his style no longer works with today's kids--I don't know.
If you respect him so much, why blast him on an anonymous message board? How "respectful" is it for you to be trying to run Coach Freeman out of town?
all freeman has done at valpo is work hard to try to develop this program into a winning one! i find it difficult to accept the harsh criticism and foul play being brought out against coach freeman. kicking him out to the curb at this point would only breed more instability! he is the team's glue.
I think Freeman can turn things around with the right mix of players. He's growing and learning, along with the team. Valpo isn't a big time basketball school, and doesn't attract the players that say, the big ten and other conferences do. Let's not forget that we stepped up into the Horizon League which is more competitive then where we were. I take my hat off to a coach, and a program, that works really hard at recruiting and signing players within our state. So much talent has left Indiana, so it's always refreshing to see our local talent stay local.
Having said that, I do feel that, the 2 All Stars we have coming could play for any major college, as both got some serious consideration outside of Indiana. We are lucky they chose Valpo, and they are lucky to be able to get a first class edjucation, while playing the game they love. These two, I think, are the shot in the arm our program needs to turn things around. I think those that aren't familiar with them will be pleasently surprized with what they bring to the program. They are 2 of the 14 young ladies chosen from Indiana to represent our state in our anual battle with Kentuckys best. If you get a chance, check them out. I'm sure it'll be televised. They compete on 6/10 at Kentucky, and again on 6/11 @ 5:00pm at Conseco Fieldhouse. I'm looking forward to watching our local girls sweep this year. They are loaded with talent from top to bottom.
Quote from: jack on May 04, 2011, 07:19:06 AM
I think Freeman can turn things around with the right mix of players. He's growing and learning, along with the team. Valpo isn't a big time basketball school, and doesn't attract the players that say, the big ten and other conferences do. Let's not forget that we stepped up into the Horizon League which is more competitive then where we were. I take my hat off to a coach, and a program, that works really hard at recruiting and signing players within our state. So much talent has left Indiana, so it's always refreshing to see our local talent stay local.
Having said that, I do feel that, the 2 All Stars we have coming could play for any major college, as both got some serious consideration outside of Indiana. We are lucky they chose Valpo, and they are lucky to be able to get a first class edjucation, while playing the game they love. These two, I think, are the shot in the arm our program needs to turn things around. I think those that aren't familiar with them will be pleasently surprized with what they bring to the program. They are 2 of the 14 young ladies chosen from Indiana to represent our state in our anual battle with Kentuckys best. If you get a chance, check them out. I'm sure it'll be televised. They compete on 6/10 at Kentucky, and again on 6/11 @ 5:00pm at Conseco Fieldhouse. I'm looking forward to watching our local girls sweep this year. They are loaded with talent from top to bottom.
Would love to see more of this type of post around here!
all freeman has done at valpo is work hard to try to develop this program into a winning one!
No offense but we are winning at 38% level in the Horizon League, 26% in the last two, at what point do you think someone should question what is going on?
i find it difficult to accept the harsh criticism and foul play being brought out against coach freeman. kicking him out to the curb at this point would only breed more instability!
See my comment above.
he is the team's glue.
See my comment above.
Freeman adds two Guards:
/4/2011 - Women's Basketball
Women's Basketball Adds Two Guards » All News
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Coach Freeman added two new signees for the fall. (Ray Acevedo)Valparaiso University women's basketball coach Keith Freeman has announced the signing of Charae Richardson and Ieva Jansone to National Letters of Intent, and both will play for the Crusaders in the fall.
Both players are junior college transfers, and will have two years of eligibility remaining.
"These two additions add to a talented class that includes two Indiana All-Stars in Jessica Carr and Mallory Ladd, as well as Shaquira Scott," Freeman commented. "This class is very strong, athletic and has versatility. All of these players can score in a variety of ways."
Richardson is a 5-6 guard from Vincennes University where she averaged 11.6 points and 3.2 rebounds per game last season. She added 3.5 assists and 2.2 steals per game while shooting 81% from the free throw line, helping the Lady Trailblazers to a 28-4 record. A native of Lafayette, Ind. and Jefferson High School, Richardson earned NJCAA Division I All-Region 12 honors.
"Charae is a very smart player who can defend, handle the ball, and score," Freeman said. "She has the ability to get to the free throw line. She will add strength to our perimeter."
Jansone is a 6-0 guard from Miles Comminuity College. She helped lead the Pioneers to a 25-7 mark this past season, averaging 16.8 points and 5.2 rebounds per game. A 48.7% shooter from the floor, the Riga, Latvia native also averaged 2.3 assists and 3.4 steals per night. She earned NJCAA Division I All-Region 9 honors for both the regular season as well as being named to the All-Tournament Team, and was an Honorable Mention All-American. Jansone also was named the Most Valuable Player of the Mon-Dak Conference.
"Ieva is a very versatile player," Freeman said. "She is an excellent driver and can defend multiple positions. Her athleticism and ability to score will provide a positive impact on our program."
Good for Valpo. These two sound like some quality players that have a couple years of college experience under their belt. They should be able to offer some emmediate help with possitive minutes. Things keep looking up!
Athletes! Something we need. Richardson and her 5-0 younger sister (a year behind also at Vincennes) we very enjoyable to watch in HS.
This brings us to 16 players giving more credence to RLH's comment on Gick
NWI Times article on the subject: http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/article_e03c3d67-1262-503c-9c3b-a68db3f3904f.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/article_e03c3d67-1262-503c-9c3b-a68db3f3904f.html)
Gick does appear to be done, and Oren makes Freeman seem very optimistic both about the team's general future and the ability for Richardson and Jansone to make an immediate impact.
Quote from: KL31NY on May 04, 2011, 08:59:23 PM
NWI Times article on the subject: http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/article_e03c3d67-1262-503c-9c3b-a68db3f3904f.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/article_e03c3d67-1262-503c-9c3b-a68db3f3904f.html)
Gick does appear to be done, and Oren makes Freeman seem very optimistic both about the team's general future and the ability for Richardson and Jansone to make an immediate impact.
Your signature is especially appropriate for Keith...no one will outwork him and he will never surrender. This is a guy we need to keep in the fold, regardless of the naysayer, fairweather fans.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 04, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
all freeman has done at valpo is work hard to try to develop this program into a winning one!
No offense but we are winning at 38% level in the Horizon League, 26% in the last two, at what point do you think someone should question what is going on?
i find it difficult to accept the harsh criticism and foul play being brought out against coach freeman. kicking him out to the curb at this point would only breed more instability!
See my comment above.
he is the team's glue.
See my comment above.
cynics like you are the ones who drive the guys you need the most away. i can't believe how much freeman bashing is going on here. the guy is a class act and the program could turn around any year now.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 04, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
all freeman has done at valpo is work hard to try to develop this program into a winning one!
No offense but we are winning at 38% level in the Horizon League, 26% in the last two, at what point do you think someone should question what is going on?
i find it difficult to accept the harsh criticism and foul play being brought out against coach freeman. kicking him out to the curb at this point would only breed more instability!
See my comment above.
he is the team's glue.
See my comment above.
No offense, but I have heard it said that "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." You really think the numbers tell the whole story here? Have you spent any time whatsoever with Keith? Maybe once you have dinner with Keith, attend a practice, join him for a game film session, then you can begin to "question what's going on."
Geez, I really am surprised some of you guys stuck around through the early years of Homer. Coach Cal's win-at-all-costs ways seem much more suitable for you.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 04, 2011, 10:09:06 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 04, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
all freeman has done at valpo is work hard to try to develop this program into a winning one!
No offense but we are winning at 38% level in the Horizon League, 26% in the last two, at what point do you think someone should question what is going on?
i find it difficult to accept the harsh criticism and foul play being brought out against coach freeman. kicking him out to the curb at this point would only breed more instability!
See my comment above.
he is the team's glue.
See my comment above.
No offense, but I have heard it said that "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." You really think the numbers tell the whole story here? Have you spent any time whatsoever with Keith? Maybe once you have dinner with Keith, attend a practice, join him for a game film session, then you can begin to "question what's going on."
Geez, I really am surprised some of you guys stuck around through the early years of Homer. Coach Cal's win-at-all-costs ways seem much more suitable for you.
what about this statistic dcvalpo? freeman gives 226% ALL THE TIME. how many other coaches can you say that about?
what about this statistic dcvalpo? freeman gives 226% ALL THE TIME. how many other coaches can you say that about?
Wow if he can give 226% to this job he is wasting his time at Valpo perhaps he can cure cancer or solve the world hunger problem.
Seriously, just so I understand where you are coming from, if we continue to lose 3 out of every 4 games into the future, you are ok with keeping this coach.
276-226 at Valpo...four twenty win seasons...doesn't sound like 3 out of 4 games is a loss. Sounds like you have short term memory. Thank God you weren't in a position to fire Homer early on!
And for the record, yes, I am ok with losing 3 out of 4 if we have a program of integrity and academic success as we have had under Keith. He understands what college is all about, unlike some of you around here.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 05, 2011, 07:50:59 AM
276-226 at Valpo...four twenty win seasons...doesn't sound like 3 out of 4 games is a loss. Sounds like you have short term memory. Thank God you weren't in a position to fire Homer early on!
And for the record, yes, I am ok with losing 3 out of 4 if we have a program of integrity and academic success as we have had under Keith. He understands what college is all about, unlike some of you around here.
His record and accomplishments are why he is still employed today and rightly so. At some point every college in America will no longer employ someone who is losing as much as we are currently even if they understand what college is all about......every college in America. Hopefully, the new players bring us back and this discussion is no longer necessary.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 05, 2011, 07:50:59 AM
I am ok with losing 3 out of 4 if we have a program of integrity and academic success as we have had under Keith. He understands what college is all about, unlike some of you around here.
You honestly don't care if a sports team at your D1 institution only wins 25% of their games?? These women aren't getting a free education because the coaching staff thinks they will have academic success... they are getting it because the staff thinks they are good at basketball. Being good at basketball means winning more than 25% of the time.
I understand sticking up for the guy, especially with his longterm track record... but that doesn't mean that he has a free pass to win only 25% of the time simply because he runs a clean program.
Knowing what college is about and knowing what competing at the highest level in college athletics is about are two separate things.
Also, I know a lot of people who give 100% (giving more is literally impossible) but it doesn't necessarily mean they are good at what they do...
Look at his all-time record, valpo04. Let's not be shortsighted. Yes, he has had a few down years as we try to get acclimated to the Horizon League. But this guy has gotten the job done at Valpo for a long time and he has done things the right way. Am I really satisfied with 25% winning? No. Does Keith win at a 25% clip? No. I'm not a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy...he has been an excellent coach here for years and he deserves plenty of time to get us out of this rut. This guy is the truth and the truth will set us free man.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 05, 2011, 09:25:56 AM
Look at his all-time record, valpo04. Let's not be shortsighted. Yes, he has had a few down years as we try to get acclimated to the Horizon League. But this guy has gotten the job done at Valpo for a long time and he has done things the right way. Am I really satisfied with 25% winning? No. Does Keith win at a 25% clip? No. I'm not a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy...he has been an excellent coach here for years and he deserves plenty of time to get us out of this rut. This guy is the truth and the truth will set us free man.
Which is precisely what I said... he has the track record, and I understand why that allows him to have some "down" years. But it also doesn't mean that winning 25% of the time is acceptable, and I'm sure he would be the first to say that.
Believe me, Keith is not happy with the recent lack of success. I can personally assure you of that. With this class coming in, however, I think there will be a lot of posters here jumping back on the Keith Freeman bandwagon and quick.
I have to say I agree with what Freeman, and the coaching staff are working towards. I do believe some of their lack of success is due to issues out of thier control. Injuries certainly haven't helped their cause. Like many small D1 schools and thier athletic programs, you are getting players that may have shinned in highschool, but just aren't ready to play at the next level. Looking at some of the talent we've been able to secure over the past couple of years, we have some players that, from my perspective, should have produced better results then they have. Our biggest detriment in my opinion, has been a lack of floor leadership. Regardless of the talent level, all good teams have a player or two, that can lead their teammates by instilling confidence. I don't know enough about the junior transfers we just picked up to voice an opinion, but I will say, the two All Stars we have coming are both proven leaders. More then anything else, this is what we've lacked for some time it seems. Keith, and his staff, have done a great job of selling Valpo to the young players, and part of the draw, I'm sure, was the first class edjucation they will receive.
Having said that, I will have to agree, that things will have to improve in the "W" column to validate the work and possition the coaching staff holds. Certainly, for the entire student body, edjucation comes first, but when your scholarships to student athletes go for 50K a year, there has to be a level of accoutability for both the athlete, and the coaching staff.
I truly feel we will see some special things out of this squad next season. Stay Tuned!
Quote from: jack on May 05, 2011, 09:46:13 AM
I have to say I agree with what Freeman, and the coaching staff are working towards. I do believe some of their lack of success is due to issues out of thier control. Injuries certainly haven't helped their cause. Like many small D1 schools and thier athletic programs, you are getting players that may have shinned in highschool, but just aren't ready to play at the next level. Looking at some of the talent we've been able to secure over the past couple of years, we have some players that, from my perspective, should have produced better results then they have. Our biggest detriment in my opinion, has been a lack of floor leadership. Regardless of the talent level, all good teams have a player or two, that can lead their teammates by instilling confidence. I don't know enough about the junior transfers we just picked up to voice an opinion, but I will say, the two All Stars we have coming are both proven leaders. More then anything else, this is what we've lacked for some time it seems. Keith, and his staff, have done a great job of selling Valpo to the young players, and part of the draw, I'm sure, was the first class edjucation they will receive.
Having said that, I will have to agree, that things will have to improve in the "W" column to validate the work and possition the coaching staff holds. Certainly, for the entire student body, edjucation comes first, but when your scholarships to student athletes go for 50K a year, there has to be a level of accoutability for both the athlete, and the coaching staff.
I truly feel we will see some special things out of this squad next season. Stay Tuned!
Here we go...more Jack, less vu72 and his ilk around here
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 03, 2011, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 04:35:32 PM
Look, I like Keith and respect him very much as a person. sometime style is a problem and perhaps his style no longer works with today's kids--I don't know.
If you respect him so much, why blast him on an anonymous message board? How "respectful" is it for you to be trying to run Coach Freeman out of town?
I'm still trying to conjure up the image of vu72 -- the resident optimist -- running anyone out of town, but I'm laughing too hard to accomplish the task.
Here we go...more Jack, less vu72 and his ilk around here
I love being part of an ilk! Sweet!
Sorry for my passion on this guys...just know how much this losing is eating Keith up.
You know, now I understand what dcvalpo was saying under another thread when he asked for a "truce"! At the time I responded, I didn't know about the savage attack on this thread and now, the truce is over, I'm madder than hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!
Seriously, I guess I got the shot because I started this thread, but, if you look back on my Freeman posts I have, for example, listed his big wins and overall track record in response to others jumping on Keith. come on now, as the "resident optimist" did you really expect me to run off a Valpo coach??
I know keith and respect him as a person very much. The fact remains that there has been a period of pretty bad results and the success of past years has slipped into some awful results of late. Look, Stacy Adams had a lot of friends and people who admired him as well. As 04 pointed out, this is D1 basketball not D3. Keith has proven he is a great recruiter, now, he needs to find a way to turn that into wins on the court.
And for the record, the "truce" still stands!!!
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2011, 08:44:14 AM
You know, now I understand what dcvalpo was saying under another thread when he asked for a "truce"! At the time I responded, I didn't know about the savage attack on this thread and now, the truce is over, I'm madder than hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!
Seriously, I guess I got the shot because I started this thread, but, if you look back on my Freeman posts I have, for example, listed his big wins and overall track record in response to others jumping on Keith. come on now, as the "resident optimist" did you really expect me to run off a Valpo coach??
I know keith and respect him as a person very much. The fact remains that there has been a period of pretty bad results and the success of past years has slipped into some awful results of late. Look, Stacy Adams had a lot of friends and people who admired him as well. As 04 pointed out, this is D1 basketball not D3. Keith has proven he is a great recruiter, now, he needs to find a way to turn that into wins on the court.
And for the record, the "truce" still stands!!!
Alright, alright, enough jabs, I get it! :) Glad to be a friend and not a foe, vu72. You have some clout around here. Anyways, sounds like you and are on the same page for the most part...Keith is a great guy and deserves as much time as it takes.
Coach Freeman and the team has just been in a slump of late. It happens to the best of teams. It certainly isn't from lack of effort on his, and the coaching staff's part. Probably one of the hardest working coaches I know. He'll get himself and his program back to it's winning ways. You can bet on it. Looking at the returning talent from last season, and the talent he's bringing in, he's certainly working towards that means. I'm looking forward to watching them compete.
Quote from: jack on May 06, 2011, 12:59:33 PM
Coach Freeman and the team has just been in a slump of late. It happens to the best of teams. It certainly isn't from lack of effort on his, and the coaching staff's part. Probably one of the hardest working coaches I know. He'll get himself and his program back to it's winning ways. You can bet on it. Looking at the returning talent from last season, and the talent he's bringing in, he's certainly working towards that means. I'm looking forward to watching them compete.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Two year slump? Losing to YSU twice is a slump? C'mon! What will it be next year? What injury? What recruit did we not get? What assistant left (I cannot even believe that is listed as an excuse)? What recruit will be the next savior of the program? Someone needs to step up and be held accountable and 17 years tenure is not an acceptable reason to do nothing ------ well I guess that can be added the exhaustive list of excuses to do nothing. The TRUTH is that no changes reflect the urgency to have a winning season - but, this is just a women's sport so it may not be that important at VU. Think Homer would still be here after two seasons like this? MBB lost recruits, endured injuries, even lost an assistant (Looks like he was a key one - Baylor has done well), and they remain competitive in the Horizon League.
Prediction: 1/4 into this next season you will see what may look like copies of the former forum show up on this forum and next year at this time there will be another "If they don't win..." thread that will lead nowhere because more are interested in protecting a friend over doing what is best for the program or university.
This ain't the Summit League anymore and the theory of a two year slump is delusional.
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 10:02:59 AM
Two year slump? Losing to YSU twice is a slump? C'mon! What will it be next year? What injury? What recruit did we not get? What assistant left (I cannot even believe that is listed as an excuse)? What recruit will be the next savior of the program? Someone needs to step up and be held accountable and 17 years tenure is not an acceptable reason to do nothing ------ well I guess that can be added the exhaustive list of excuses to do nothing. The TRUTH is that no changes reflect the urgency to have a winning season - but, this is just a women's sport so it may not be that important at VU. Think Homer would still be here after two seasons like this? MBB lost recruits, endured injuries, even lost an assistant (Looks like he was a key one - Baylor has done well), and they remain competitive in the Horizon League.
Prediction: 1/4 into this next season you will see what may look like copies of the former forum show up on this forum and next year at this time there will be another "If they don't win..." thread that will lead nowhere because more are interested in protecting a friend over doing what is best for the program or university.
This ain't the Summit League anymore and the theory of a two year slump is delusional.
How do you really feel.....
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 10:02:59 AM
Two year slump? Losing to YSU twice is a slump? C'mon! What will it be next year? What injury? What recruit did we not get? What assistant left (I cannot even believe that is listed as an excuse)? What recruit will be the next savior of the program? Someone needs to step up and be held accountable and 17 years tenure is not an acceptable reason to do nothing ------ well I guess that can be added the exhaustive list of excuses to do nothing. The TRUTH is that no changes reflect the urgency to have a winning season - but, this is just a women's sport so it may not be that important at VU. Think Homer would still be here after two seasons like this? MBB lost recruits, endured injuries, even lost an assistant (Looks like he was a key one - Baylor has done well), and they remain competitive in the Horizon League.
Prediction: 1/4 into this next season you will see what may look like copies of the former forum show up on this forum and next year at this time there will be another "If they don't win..." thread that will lead nowhere because more are interested in protecting a friend over doing what is best for the program or university.
This ain't the Summit League anymore and the theory of a two year slump is delusional.
Someone sounds bitter...what, did Keith pass you over for an assistant position?
Keith will have this team at .500 or better this season, book it. I know he is working his tail off right now to get us where we need to be. I have never been around a guy who takes losses harder and you will begin to see the results soon.
Quote from: rlh on May 08, 2011, 10:22:48 AM
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 10:02:59 AM
Two year slump? Losing to YSU twice is a slump? C'mon! What will it be next year? What injury? What recruit did we not get? What assistant left (I cannot even believe that is listed as an excuse)? What recruit will be the next savior of the program? Someone needs to step up and be held accountable and 17 years tenure is not an acceptable reason to do nothing ------ well I guess that can be added the exhaustive list of excuses to do nothing. The TRUTH is that no changes reflect the urgency to have a winning season - but, this is just a women's sport so it may not be that important at VU. Think Homer would still be here after two seasons like this? MBB lost recruits, endured injuries, even lost an assistant (Looks like he was a key one - Baylor has done well), and they remain competitive in the Horizon League.
Prediction: 1/4 into this next season you will see what may look like copies of the former forum show up on this forum and next year at this time there will be another "If they don't win..." thread that will lead nowhere because more are interested in protecting a friend over doing what is best for the program or university.
This ain't the Summit League anymore and the theory of a two year slump is delusional.
How do you really feel.....
Exactly, this guy really takes no prisoners I guess. Rlh, I know you are also a friend of Keith's...based on what you are seeing now and know of him, what is your outlook on next season?
I'd bank on a .500 season. The tone taken by some here would suggest a personal bone to pick with the coach and not something that reflects a true assesment of the situation. My bet is they'll find something else to complain about even after we hit .500.
Quote from: jack on May 08, 2011, 06:41:54 PM
I'd bank on a .500 season. The tone taken by some here would suggest a personal bone to pick with the coach and not something that reflects a true assesment of the situation. My bet is they'll find something else to complain about even after we hit .500.
Yeah, not quite sure what gives with some of these guys! Did Keith run your dog over and cheat with your wife? Geesh!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 08, 2011, 04:43:16 PM
Quote from: rlh on May 08, 2011, 10:22:48 AM
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 10:02:59 AM
Two year slump? Losing to YSU twice is a slump? C'mon! What will it be next year? What injury? What recruit did we not get? What assistant left (I cannot even believe that is listed as an excuse)? What recruit will be the next savior of the program? Someone needs to step up and be held accountable and 17 years tenure is not an acceptable reason to do nothing ------ well I guess that can be added the exhaustive list of excuses to do nothing. The TRUTH is that no changes reflect the urgency to have a winning season - but, this is just a women's sport so it may not be that important at VU. Think Homer would still be here after two seasons like this? MBB lost recruits, endured injuries, even lost an assistant (Looks like he was a key one - Baylor has done well), and they remain competitive in the Horizon League.
Prediction: 1/4 into this next season you will see what may look like copies of the former forum show up on this forum and next year at this time there will be another "If they don't win..." thread that will lead nowhere because more are interested in protecting a friend over doing what is best for the program or university.
This ain't the Summit League anymore and the theory of a two year slump is delusional.
How do you really feel.....
Exactly, this guy really takes no prisoners I guess. Rlh, I know you are also a friend of Keith's...based on what you are seeing now and know of him, what is your outlook on next season?
I concur with you on one thing and that is he is working is a-- off trying to turn this thing around. I don't always agree with what he does coaching wise or personell wise (I've argued with him more than once), but there has never been a doubt about how much he cares and how hard he works. We need a good point guard to make his offense scheme work, unfortuntely Richards hasn't taken charge as he hoped she would. Hopefully these recruits are as good as advertised...inside I think we have two potential all league players in Gerardot and Lange (Stephanie). They both have things to work on defensively, but they make a difference on the floor. The return of Varner will be a big thing to give us more depth inside, and Gina Lang needs to continue to improve her play. No one plays harder than her. I'm really disappointed in the loss of Gick. I thought she might become the answer at point, but bad backs are just nothing to mess with and her Doctor is the one that has pulled the plug....next year, I think we will be much more competitive. We lack inside presence and I think we have the potential to match up with the Green Bay's, Butler and Cleveland States there in the future. It won't be for lack of effort that is for sure
I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with rlh here...if anyone needs to be run out of town, it's Richards! She has not fulfilled her promise and I put the blame for the losses squarely on her shoulders. Good thoughts rlh.
You are right on the money...the girls will play hard, Keith will work his tail off, and we will be competitive. And you're not the only one around here who has had his fair share of run-ins with Keith! ;)
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 08, 2011, 07:32:40 PM
I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with rlh here...if anyone needs to be run out of town, it's Richards! She has not fulfilled her promise and I put the blame for the losses squarely on her shoulders. Good thoughts rlh.
You are right on the money...the girls will play hard, Keith will work his tail off, and we will be competitive. And you're not the only one around here who has had his fair share of run-ins with Keith! ;)
i don't think we need to add to what rlh said...he stated it better than we ever could. the overall lack of leadership on the team has presented the perfect challenge for keith to rise to and show all of his doubters what he is made of.
You may not like what I said and I do not agree with you - but it is inappropriate to make those comments about Laura - might be time to shut this thread down. There is pleanty of bitterness about this program to go around and to take a personal shot at one player is classless.
I think .500 is attainable and right now, I would be happy with that - and if the only issue is floor leadership and he excels in that - great. But that is a hard excuse to accept for two years. Sorry to offend those that think this is personal - I have a hard time supporting what is becoming the YSU of the horizon league, and I don't like it.
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 08:04:02 PM
You may not like what I said and I do not agree with you - but it is inappropriate to make those comments about Laura - might be time to shut this thread down. There is pleanty of bitterness about this program to go around and to take a personal shot at one player is classless.
I think .500 is attainable and right now, I would be happy with that - and if the only issue is floor leadership and he excels in that - great. But that is a hard excuse to accept for two years. Sorry to offend those that think this is personal - I have a hard time supporting what is becoming the YSU of the horizon league, and I don't like it.
Shut down the thread? So, at this point we can't make mention of the basketball performance of Valpo basketball players in the VU basketball forum? That would really give us a lot to talk about, huh?
Might be time for you to head back to the hole you crawled out of. Don't come here bashing a great guy like Keith and then get mad when player performance is questioned.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 08, 2011, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: acesneights on May 08, 2011, 08:04:02 PM
You may not like what I said and I do not agree with you - but it is inappropriate to make those comments about Laura - might be time to shut this thread down. There is pleanty of bitterness about this program to go around and to take a personal shot at one player is classless.
I think .500 is attainable and right now, I would be happy with that - and if the only issue is floor leadership and he excels in that - great. But that is a hard excuse to accept for two years. Sorry to offend those that think this is personal - I have a hard time supporting what is becoming the YSU of the horizon league, and I don't like it.
Shut down the thread? So, at this point we can't make mention of the basketball performance of Valpo basketball players in the VU basketball forum? That would really give us a lot to talk about, huh?
Might be time for you to head back to the hole you crawled out of. Don't come here bashing a great guy like Keith and then get mad when player performance is questioned.
i guess not everybody can handle "the truth", that is keith!
You guys crack me up! :lol:
"I concur with you on one thing and that is he is working is a-- off trying to turn this thing around. I don't always agree with what he does coaching wise or personell wise (I've argued with him more than once), but there has never been a doubt about how much he cares and how hard he works. We need a good point guard to make his offense scheme work, unfortuntely Richards hasn't taken charge as he hoped she would. Hopefully these recruits are as good as advertised...inside I think we have two potential all league players in Gerardot and Lange (Stephanie). They both have things to work on defensively, but they make a difference on the floor. The return of Varner will be a big thing to give us more depth inside, and Gina Lang needs to continue to improve her play. No one plays harder than her. I'm really disappointed in the loss of Gick. I thought she might become the answer at point, but bad backs are just nothing to mess with and her Doctor is the one that has pulled the plug....next year, I think we will be much more competitive. We lack inside presence and I think we have the potential to match up with the Green Bay's, Butler and Cleveland States there in the future. It won't be for lack of effort that is for sure"
It appears that Keith agrees with many of us on his needs as well.We need a point guard that can handle the ball, reduce the turnovers, be a leader, keep her teammates involved, and get the ball to the shooters. He found that in Carr. A bonus to that is she can also create her own shots and score when needed. We need an inside presence to match up with the bigger squads we face. This presence also has to be a leader, needs to pull down some boards on both sides of the floor, and must be able to score. He found that in Ladd. Truly one of the best big games I've seen in some time.These two, along with the rest of the talent we have, will make great strides this season. Count on it.
you guys calling out richards is ridiculous.
she is the product of coaching-players come here and need to be developed into what we need
unfortunately that player development is not/has not been happening
in the end the players we recruit get the blame for our losses-instead of admitting we do not recruit well
esp in the horizon league where the other teams ARE developing talent
you cant sell what you dont own
Listen guys, you need to relax. Rlh made a great point about Richards, and I was just giving credit where it was due. Maybe put up more than one post before you start calling people "ridiculous."
Looks like a nerve was struck with those who like to flame...kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names. I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started? Makes you go hmm.
Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.
I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.
The downward spiral started the when Ray was not developed into a PG as a freshman or soph. Her confidence was destroyed and she became a 5-3 SG. With Ray out of the picture we were left with 2 freshmen. Gick was headed down the same road as Ray therefore there was no choice but to play Richards. Trust me, she was not brought in to start at PG. She has done an admirable job in a tough situation. Wayne is correct we have not been developing players, especially PG's for several years and losses are the result.
Where did this get started? I brought this up mid season.
Quote from: KL31NY on May 09, 2011, 10:15:09 PM
Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.
I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.
Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches. It's not the other way around guy. Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they? I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 09, 2011, 10:24:28 PM
The downward spiral started the when Ray was not developed into a PG as a freshman or soph. Her confidence was destroyed and she became a 5-3 SG. With Ray out of the picture we were left with 2 freshmen. Gick was headed down the same road as Ray therefore there was no choice but to play Richards. Trust me, she was not brought in to start at PG. She has done an admirable job in a tough situation. Wayne is correct we have not been developing players, especially PG's for several years and losses are the result.
Where did this get started? I brought this up mid season.
So, all of the sudden, after years of great coaching, Keith just forgot how to develop players?
So, all of the sudden, after years of great coaching, Keith just forgot how to develop players?
For whatever reason, our player development has slipped the last few years. If you can't see that then this discussion is pointless. If the players are incapable of development then we are recruiting the wrong people. Either way the coach has some responsibility here. If we have now recruited the type of players we need.....good for us!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 09, 2011, 10:28:01 PM
Quote from: KL31NY on May 09, 2011, 10:15:09 PM
Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.
I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.
Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches. It's not the other way around guy. Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they? I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.
I agree w/ everything posted. That said, I was also referring more to you than rlh for singling Laura out for the losses. I liked rlh's comments earlier on the team, and agreeing again with you, the key is whether these women put in the work necessary to win, and only then will Keith, Kirby, and the rest of that staff really do the most to help these players along.
Quote from: KL31NY on May 09, 2011, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 09, 2011, 10:28:01 PM
Quote from: KL31NY on May 09, 2011, 10:15:09 PM
Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm backing wayne and acesneights on Laura. Although I would like to see her be a more productive player and a bigger leader, there is no way Laura is solely responsible for the losses as has been stated or implied earlier. Call me naive, but I believe that you win as a team, lose as a team.
I personally saw a lot of positives and negatives throughout the entire team this past season, and it's not a one horse club. If they are going to succeed this coming season, everyone will need to do work and improve as a cohesive, healthy unit, and I believe that in some shape or form, we will see some improvement.
Look "guy," back whoever you want but I think the bigger point being missed by all but maybe rlh, myself, DMValpo and a handful of others is that great players make great coaches. It's not the other way around guy. Keith can only fly as high as these girls fly, and they haven't been flying too high, now have they? I don't think rlh was really calling out Laura, just mentioning that she hasn't done what we all hoped and that Keith is suffering for that.
I agree w/ everything posted. That said, I was also referring more to you than rlh for singling Laura out for the losses. I liked rlh's comments earlier on the team, and agreeing again with you, the key is whether these women put in the work necessary to win, and only then will Keith, Kirby, and the rest of that staff really do the most to help these players along.
YES, this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say!
However, for future reference, I would prefer we didn't bring Kirby into all of this...that is a whole other can of worms that I don't care to open.
I wasn't going to, but I think I must jump in here. I never said anything that would indicate that I don't think that Laura Richards works hard and I certainly didn't heap the problems the past two years on her....she's one of the hardest workers on the team and plays very very good defense, but she has not developed into the all-conference type point guard we would hope for....that's not because she doesn't work hard...I love her efforts and look for her to continue to improve and work just as hard in the future...the fact is, she's not really a point guard. She was a big-time scorer in high school as I understand, and she's had trouble making the adjustment. Happens all the time at all levels....I just don't want to be misunderstood....I was asked to assess the team and I did that to the best of my ability, but would never point out one person as the reason we have struggled. It takes a team to win, and it takes a team to not win.....
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 09, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names. I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started? Makes you go hmm.
That is not and has not been allowed.
I, too was only pointing out that, in my opinion, we have struggle with chemistry on the floor. I also believe that much of this is due to players competing in possitions outside of their comfort zone. As rlh has eluded to, Richards is a hard worker and an assest to the team. she does well defensively, and will do well offensively when the pressure to run the floor is elliviated, and she can slide back into a SG where she's more comfortable at. A lot of good, valid points and concerns are being discussed here. That's what these forums are for. I feel it's a good place to reflect possitively on the teams, there accomplishments, and their expectations. It also is a healthy place to voice concerns, an even some phylisophical differences. I don't think it's a place to sigle out any one player as a problem. It just isn't the case, ever. Win as a team, lose as a team. Floor chemistry improves when player confidence improves. I disagree with some here that suggest that the coaching staff isn't working hard enough to develop the PG possition. I've coached and have been around this game as long as I can remember, and, it's my opinion that, at this level, when talking about PG's, there are certain attributes that aren't developable - they're either there, or they aren't. That's not to say they can't work and develop ball control, passing ability, etc. but there are certain abilities that a PG must posses, that aren't taught, or learned. they either have them, or they don't. They have to see the floor extremely well, see a play develop before it happens, and understand what the defense is trying to do, all of which has to happen in seconds, and they have to react even faster. This is where the leadership and team confidence in their PG comes in. It's a make or break deal really. Many players can fill in at the PG spot for a time, but, in the end, A true PG needs to be in place, on the team, to be consistently successful. They are your floor general, and all other players feed off of their confidence.
Quote from: rlh on May 10, 2011, 12:22:54 AM
I wasn't going to, but I think I must jump in here. I never said anything that would indicate that I don't think that Laura Richards works hard and I certainly didn't heap the problems the past two years on her....she's one of the hardest workers on the team and plays very very good defense, but she has not developed into the all-conference type point guard we would hope for....that's not because she doesn't work hard...I love her efforts and look for her to continue to improve and work just as hard in the future...the fact is, she's not really a point guard. She was a big-time scorer in high school as I understand, and she's had trouble making the adjustment. Happens all the time at all levels....I just don't want to be misunderstood....I was asked to assess the team and I did that to the best of my ability, but would never point out one person as the reason we have struggled. It takes a team to win, and it takes a team to not win.....
Sorry if I took you out of context rlh and sorry that some of the flamers around here are giving you the business. The bolded above is what I was agreeing with...and you are right on the money with that.
Again, the larger point is that Keith is not completely responsible for players developing. They take a lot of the blame for their development. Keith is a great guy and a hard worker and I can assure you that he is not the biggest part of the problem here. I think rlh's points---not to mention mine---are valid due to all of the first hand knowledge.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a fun time tearing an awesome guy down, everyone.
Quote from: valpo04 on May 10, 2011, 06:28:40 AM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 09, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
kind of makes you wonder if all these Keith-bashers are all the same person under new names. I am not pointing any fingers, but where did all of this get started? Makes you go hmm.
That is not and has not been allowed.
This is really good to know...all of these new posters popping up with just 1 post seemed a little suspicious.
Quote from: jack on May 10, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
I, too was only pointing out that, in my opinion, we have struggle with chemistry on the floor. I also believe that much of this is due to players competing in possitions outside of their comfort zone. As rlh has eluded to, Richards is a hard worker and an assest to the team. she does well defensively, and will do well offensively when the pressure to run the floor is elliviated, and she can slide back into a SG where she's more comfortable at. A lot of good, valid points and concerns are being discussed here. That's what these forums are for. I feel it's a good place to reflect possitively on the teams, there accomplishments, and their expectations. It also is a healthy place to voice concerns, an even some phylisophical differences. I don't think it's a place to sigle out any one player as a problem. It just isn't the case, ever. Win as a team, lose as a team. Floor chemistry improves when player confidence improves. I disagree with some here that suggest that the coaching staff isn't working hard enough to develop the PG possition. I've coached and have been around this game as long as I can remember, and, it's my opinion that, at this level, when talking about PG's, there are certain attributes that aren't developable - they're either there, or they aren't. That's not to say they can't work and develop ball control, passing ability, etc. but there are certain abilities that a PG must posses, that aren't taught, or learned. they either have them, or they don't. They have to see the floor extremely well, see a play develop before it happens, and understand what the defense is trying to do, all of which has to happen in seconds, and they have to react even faster. This is where the leadership and team confidence in their PG comes in. It's a make or break deal really. Many players can fill in at the PG spot for a time, but, in the end, A true PG needs to be in place, on the team, to be consistently successful. They are your floor general, and all other players feed off of their confidence.
Would it be possible to make jack a mod? Valpo04?
Again, the larger point is that Keith is not completely responsible for players developing. They take a lot of the blame for their development. Keith is a great guy and a hard worker and I can assure you that he is not the biggest part of the problem here. I think rlh's points---not to mention mine---are valid due to all of the first hand knowledge.
Does he have any responsibility at all or is just being a hard worker and a great guy all we ask? He recruits the players doesn't he or do they just show up. I would like to think he is involved in their development but perhaps he is only involved when they are successful.
Yes, Indy, some of the blame always rests with the coach. The buck stops at his desk. But the fact is, many were high on his recruiting classes, and some of those players just haven't lived up to their billing. Sure, maybe another coach could have gotten more out of them, but given his track record I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.
This is the tough life of coaching...when the team struggles, the coach is to blame. When the team is great, the players get all the press.
I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing. When he gets back to his winning ways and the division 1 big boys come sniffing around and wanting to snatch him up, don't be surprised if it is being a good guy that keeps him here. Unless he reads this message board, which in that case I wouldn't be surprised if he is about ready to take the first train out of town.
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 10, 2011, 09:40:56 AM
This is the tough life of coaching...when the team struggles, the coach is to blame. When the team is great, the players get all the press.
I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing. When he gets back to his winning ways and the division 1 big boys come sniffing around and wanting to snatch him up, don't be surprised if it is being a good guy that keeps him here. Unless he reads this message board, which in that case I wouldn't be surprised if he is about ready to take the first train out of town.
So, this is the tough life of coaching, and Freeman has great work ethic and is a great guy, yet you state that you wouldn't be surprised if this great man left because he read a message board in which half of the discussion in a specific thread thought less than favorably of him??
I would think if that WAS the case, he isn't a great man, he can't handle the "tough life of a coach" and surely isn't someone I would want leading my school's D1 basketball program.
Of course those qualities mean something..but that has been your entire argument and I am sorry but if he doesn't win ultimately he shouldn't have the job. I think even he would understand that, you won't, but he would.
You don't get out much if you think this board has been unfair or even mean to this guy. Legitimate questions have been asked. I think even he would understand that, you won't, be he would.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 10, 2011, 10:00:54 AM
Of course those qualities mean something..but that has been your entire argument and I am sorry but if he doesn't win ultimately he shouldn't have the job. I think even he would understand that, you won't, but he would.
You don't get out much if you think this board has been unfair or even mean to this guy. Legitimate questions have been asked. I think even he would understand that, you won't, be he would.
There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion about the state of the women's team with someone who doesn't really care about results as long as the coach is a good guy... as dcvalpo already stated:
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 05, 2011, 07:50:59 AM
And for the record, yes, I am ok with losing 3 out of 4 if we have a program of integrity and academic success as we have had under Keith.
Guys, I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's been a fun debate, but we can agree to disagree.
P.S. Coming into this season, there was another coach in town who had put up a 24-39 record over the last two years. There were some ardent supporters who wouldn't hear of any talk about removing this coach. I believe the arguments were that he was/is a great guy, works his butt off, and has a great track record. Maybe "the truth" in this thread is that we are all a little biased when it comes to "our guy."
Alright, let's see...
As a college basketball coach (for those who don't know, yes, I am), the results of the program you lead are DIRECTLY attributed to you. It doesn't matter how hard you work, doesn't matter how much you care, all that really matters is results. And, to suggest that players are to blame is a cop-out, since its not the players who determine who plays...its the coaches. If you want to say a player isn't the right one, that's on the coaches, they recruit the players...if they haven't developed, that's on the coaches (if the kids aren't working hard enough to develop as players, they shouldn't be playing anyways).
As someone who has athletic department experience at the college level, I can say this: it's not an expectation to make the NCAA Tournament every season. It's the ultimate goal, of course, but its generally unrealistic unless you have a program that dominates a conference like Green Bay. What you do look for as an athletic director, however, is continued improvement.
Now, it wasn't too long ago that I remember quite a few posters suggesting that it was time for Homer to step down. Obviously, he hasn't done so and the team had a very successful season - aka, improvement (though whether that is long or short term remains to be seen). From someone who has extensive experience with women's basketball, I can't honestly say that I have seen that from the VU women. From players not becoming what we thought they could, to players being out of position, etc., something just hasn't worked.
Again, to blame the players, that's totally off base. Is it right to perhaps get on them if they have a bad night or a bad stretch, yes, but to say that they haven't been good enough, that's on the coaches, and the coaches know it. I have been very fortunate in my coaching that I have had great players who have developed extremely well, something just hasn't clicked at VU. Now, there have been situations that didn't work out that nobody could forsee (Gick, for one), and that's part of the deal, but I don't think she takes the team from where it was to .500...they are more than one player away.
As for the incoming kids, obviously, I have seen them play given the fact that I have recruited Indiana quite a bit. They are good, there's no question about that, but relying on freshmen just isn't the way to go. The last "great" freshman class was in 2003-04 (Rietema, Braun, Myers), but they had a ton of help from the older kids. Who will be the leader on the floor? Perhaps someone steps up, but I'm not sure who right now.
I care about the team as much (and possibly more than most of you, for those who know my past involvement...quite literally blood, sweat and tears...and a surgery), but something just isn't right. I'm not going to come on here and call for anyone's job, but at some point, a Division 1 coach, in a top-12 conference simply has to win games. Again, I don't expect the team to make the Sweet 16 next year, and I don't expect them to compete for a conference title. But, if there is not improvement, then perhaps it would be time for a change, or at least some strong thoughts about it.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on May 10, 2011, 09:15:32 PM
Alright, let's see...
As a college basketball coach (for those who don't know, yes, I am), the results of the program you lead are DIRECTLY attributed to you. It doesn't matter how hard you work, doesn't matter how much you care, all that really matters is results. And, to suggest that players are to blame is a cop-out, since its not the players who determine who plays...its the coaches. If you want to say a player isn't the right one, that's on the coaches, they recruit the players...if they haven't developed, that's on the coaches (if the kids aren't working hard enough to develop as players, they shouldn't be playing anyways).
As someone who has athletic department experience at the college level, I can say this: it's not an expectation to make the NCAA Tournament every season. It's the ultimate goal, of course, but its generally unrealistic unless you have a program that dominates a conference like Green Bay. What you do look for as an athletic director, however, is continued improvement.
Now, it wasn't too long ago that I remember quite a few posters suggesting that it was time for Homer to step down. Obviously, he hasn't done so and the team had a very successful season - aka, improvement (though whether that is long or short term remains to be seen). From someone who has extensive experience with women's basketball, I can't honestly say that I have seen that from the VU women. From players not becoming what we thought they could, to players being out of position, etc., something just hasn't worked.
Again, to blame the players, that's totally off base. Is it right to perhaps get on them if they have a bad night or a bad stretch, yes, but to say that they haven't been good enough, that's on the coaches, and the coaches know it. I have been very fortunate in my coaching that I have had great players who have developed extremely well, something just hasn't clicked at VU. Now, there have been situations that didn't work out that nobody could forsee (Gick, for one), and that's part of the deal, but I don't think she takes the team from where it was to .500...they are more than one player away.
As for the incoming kids, obviously, I have seen them play given the fact that I have recruited Indiana quite a bit. They are good, there's no question about that, but relying on freshmen just isn't the way to go. The last "great" freshman class was in 2003-04 (Rietema, Braun, Myers), but they had a ton of help from the older kids. Who will be the leader on the floor? Perhaps someone steps up, but I'm not sure who right now.
I care about the team as much (and possibly more than most of you, for those who know my past involvement...quite literally blood, sweat and tears...and a surgery), but something just isn't right. I'm not going to come on here and call for anyone's job, but at some point, a Division 1 coach, in a top-12 conference simply has to win games. Again, I don't expect the team to make the Sweet 16 next year, and I don't expect them to compete for a conference title. But, if there is not improvement, then perhaps it would be time for a change, or at least some strong thoughts about it.
well said hoops :clap:
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 10, 2011, 09:40:56 AM
I think it would go a long way if some of you would acknowledge that Keith is a great guy and a workaholic instead of writing those qualities off as if they mean nothing.
Keith is a great guy and a hard worker.
Regardless of those 2 very good qualities if he doesn't start winning it will eventually cost him his job. It may not be after next year, it may not be after 2012-13 but we do know that ML will find a replacement if a coach does not win eventually.
what ValpoHoops has stated certainly makes a lot of sense. And there should, and will be some accountability at some point if things don't get turned around. There has to be, or as they say, "anyone can coach". And it is true, that it isn't the players fault that the wins aren't coming. Ultimately, the line ups, plays, match ups, substitutions, and schemes are all on the coaches. The players can't control that. I will have to disagree a bit on one point being made: I feel that part of our struggles, from my perspective, is that we don't count on our freshman enough. Many times comments have been made here that, "they wont play much, they're Freshman." The women's game has changed enourmously in the past five years. These incoming freshman, here, and everywhere, have played the travel circuit through AAU and other programs, with many competing in more games in one summer, then some of these college programs play in two years. And they compete at a very high level against very good talent all over the country. It's not a stretch to say by the time they get to college, they've already competed with, and against similiar talent. Granted, not all of the talent they see goes on to the next level to play, but many do, and they'll compete against them again at this level. I don't think it helps their mental aspects of the game to compete at such a high level, only to get to the college level and sit on the bench the majority of the season. True, some may need to ride the pines for most of the season to get the feel and flow of stepping up to this level, but others are clearly ready to come in first year and help out with possitive minutes from the start. Moses at Purdue comes to mind. She went to a bigger program then ours and helped out from the start. There are exceptions to every rule, and to sit your freshman for a season because it's "what you do," may be hurting your team more then you know. A teams leaders can come from any class, and thats a fact. It takes a special person, and player to want to step up and assume that role. I think it's only fair to see if you have that person early on. I'm not saying that our incoming class has a lock on that role, but I think they have proven that they can assume that role if asked to. Both came from the middle school ranks and took over that roll as Freshman in highschool. I wouldn't discount them just because they are freshmen. Let's see what they bring to the table. We all agree that we need a floor leader. I think it's time we look through the entire roster and see who can fit the bill with actions, deeds, and play. We'd be remiss if we didn't do just that.
I go back to a comment I made about this originally about the consistency of the coaching staff. We have had a lot of turnover in coaching on the women's team. Some of this might have been a young up-and-comer in the coaching ranks, or deciding it was time to move on, but ever since Steve Bruce left to become the head coach at IUSB, Valpo doesn't have that one coach that seems to have the best chemistry of how to work with Keith on improving players or recruiting to the needs of the team. I know I'll get some crap on the board about this, but I still feel we haven't had the consistency in coaching that really helps our team grow and find that floor general that we've lacked since either Lauren Bechtold or the Hochstetler twin that started at PG.
Quote from: jack on May 11, 2011, 07:55:39 AM
what ValpoHoops has stated certainly makes a lot of sense. And there should, and will be some accountability at some point if things don't get turned around. There has to be, or as they say, "anyone can coach". And it is true, that it isn't the players fault that the wins aren't coming. Ultimately, the line ups, plays, match ups, substitutions, and schemes are all on the coaches. The players can't control that. I will have to disagree a bit on one point being made: I feel that part of our struggles, from my perspective, is that we don't count on our freshman enough. Many times comments have been made here that, "they wont play much, they're Freshman." The women's game has changed enourmously in the past five years. These incoming freshman, here, and everywhere, have played the travel circuit through AAU and other programs, with many competing in more games in one summer, then some of these college programs play in two years. And they compete at a very high level against very good talent all over the country. It's not a stretch to say by the time they get to college, they've already competed with, and against similiar talent. Granted, not all of the talent they see goes on to the next level to play, but many do, and they'll compete against them again at this level. I don't think it helps their mental aspects of the game to compete at such a high level, only to get to the college level and sit on the bench the majority of the season. True, some may need to ride the pines for most of the season to get the feel and flow of stepping up to this level, but others are clearly ready to come in first year and help out with possitive minutes from the start. Moses at Purdue comes to mind. She went to a bigger program then ours and helped out from the start. There are exceptions to every rule, and to sit your freshman for a season because it's "what you do," may be hurting your team more then you know. A teams leaders can come from any class, and thats a fact. It takes a special person, and player to want to step up and assume that role. I think it's only fair to see if you have that person early on. I'm not saying that our incoming class has a lock on that role, but I think they have proven that they can assume that role if asked to. Both came from the middle school ranks and took over that roll as Freshman in highschool. I wouldn't discount them just because they are freshmen. Let's see what they bring to the table. We all agree that we need a floor leader. I think it's time we look through the entire roster and see who can fit the bill with actions, deeds, and play. We'd be remiss if we didn't do just that.
Whoa...we need to get jack on the paragraph system ;)
I can't disagree really with your premise on freshmen. I don't think I stated it quite as I wanted to in my original posting. Freshmen, if they are good, need to play and can contribute. My thought was more along the lines of not having a veteran leader (of course, they don't have to be juniors or seniors, but it helps to have people that have been through it). The only exception would be someone, as you mentioned, like Courtney Moses...unfortunately for VU, I don't think a player like her is coming along any time soon. (And yes, I know the kids coming in are very good)
I didn't mean to say that playing freshmen wasn't the answer, I meant it more as a "you need to have a mix of everyone, and generally the older kids are more reliable and consistent", and that's just the nature of the beast. And, that's where my point came from...its great to have good incoming classes, but who are they learning from, who is leading them, who is the "go-to" player when the team needs a basket?
Sorry about the run on. :P sometimes when I get a thought, I forget to come up for air.
I agree with your assesment. It is always nice if your upper classmen pave the way for the younger players. Sometime though, they need a push, from said younger players, to grab the raines. I think the talent we have coming in could, quite possibly, force all of the upper classmen to step up to their potential, and play the way Keith knew they could when he recruited them.
Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has said anything about these two new players on the women's team. Any thoughts??
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/article_aa014c31-203d-514a-a871-4d81df91156d.html (http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/article_aa014c31-203d-514a-a871-4d81df91156d.html)
Ok, so with the recent mentions of dcvalpo, I went back at checked out some of his old postings. This thread is gold. Lots of awesome discussion about the girls' program, the coaching staff, et al. Two years removed, it is interesting to look back and see what the posters thought then as compared to now. jack loved him some Freeman and he seems to not be a Dorow believer today. 72 was his typical self.
These were apparently the golden days of the message board...much more entertaining than most of the drivel posted round these parts nowadays.
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on January 21, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
Ok, so with the recent mentions of dcvalpo, I went back at checked out some of his old postings. This thread is gold. Lots of awesome discussion about the girls' program, the coaching staff, et al. Two years removed, it is interesting to look back and see what the posters thought then as compared to now. jack loved him some Freeman and he seems to not be a Dorow believer today. 72 was his typical self.
These were apparently the golden days of the message board...much more entertaining than most of the drivel posted round these parts nowadays.
I haven't a clue what your reading but it amazes me how you like to interpret comments and statements. I never "Loved me some Freeman" as you put it. On the contrary, I felt he and Kirby had let the game pass them by, and needed a new philosophy to be sucessful. I did give him cudos for pulling out 10 wins with the shape his team was in, but honestly, I felt we let a couple go we shouldn't have. Dorow is in a different arena then she was used to competing in. I feel she needs to adopt to the changes, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. We're small, so we need to be smart. The two elements on O that i feel we need to step up our game on is the pick and roll, and the screen. We are very weak in both areas. we have the speed to have success in these areas, we just need to implement them into our game. Dribbling around aimlessly at times isn't getting it done. Like I said before, we need to work to our talents' strengths. I have no personal beef about Dorow, or her staff, I just prefer to watch the games and see where we have success, and where we do not. Dorow doesn't need me as a cheerleader, she has you! ;)
When your watching the next game try something for me. On offense, don't watch the ball. Concentrate on the movements of the other 4 players that don't have the ball. This can tell you a lot.
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on January 21, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
Ok, so with the recent mentions of dcvalpo, I went back at checked out some of his old postings. This thread is gold. Lots of awesome discussion about the girls' program, the coaching staff, et al. Two years removed, it is interesting to look back and see what the posters thought then as compared to now. jack loved him some Freeman and he seems to not be a Dorow believer today. 72 was his typical self.
These were apparently the golden days of the message board...much more entertaining than most of the drivel posted round these parts nowadays.
HEY!!! I resemble that remark!! ;)
I liked this thread because my comments were actually spot-on for change.....
Speaking of Keith Freeman, he returns to the ARC, after 18 years as the Valpo women's head coach, on Feb.28, Thursday, 7:00 p.m. game.
Here's a picture of the Wright State asst coaches on the bench at the Nutter Center:
http://www.wsuraiders.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=27000&SPID=92416&SPSID=630957&BIO_PLAYER_ID=818713&KEY= (http://www.wsuraiders.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=27000&SPID=92416&SPSID=630957&BIO_PLAYER_ID=818713&KEY=)
Quote from: jack on May 05, 2011, 09:46:13 AM
I have to say I agree with what Freeman, and the coaching staff are working towards...Keith, and his staff, have done a great job of selling Valpo to the young players...I truly feel we will see some special things out of this squad next season. Stay Tuned!
Sounds like love to me. Just sayin. Not to mention the "booking" a winning season.
Oh well, live and learn I guess.
Quote from: jack on January 22, 2013, 06:41:42 AM
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on January 21, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
Ok, so with the recent mentions of dcvalpo, I went back at checked out some of his old postings. This thread is gold. Lots of awesome discussion about the girls' program, the coaching staff, et al. Two years removed, it is interesting to look back and see what the posters thought then as compared to now. jack loved him some Freeman and he seems to not be a Dorow believer today. 72 was his typical self.
These were apparently the golden days of the message board...much more entertaining than most of the drivel posted round these parts nowadays.
I haven't a clue what your reading but it amazes me how you like to interpret comments and statements. I never "Loved me some Freeman" as you put it. On the contrary, I felt he and Kirby had let the game pass them by, and needed a new philosophy to be sucessful. I did give him cudos for pulling out 10 wins with the shape his team was in, but honestly, I felt we let a couple go we shouldn't have. Dorow is in a different arena then she was used to competing in. I feel she needs to adopt to the changes, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. We're small, so we need to be smart. The two elements on O that i feel we need to step up our game on is the pick and roll, and the screen. We are very weak in both areas. we have the speed to have success in these areas, we just need to implement them into our game. Dribbling around aimlessly at times isn't getting it done. Like I said before, we need to work to our talents' strengths. I have no personal beef about Dorow, or her staff, I just prefer to watch the games and see where we have success, and where we do not. Dorow doesn't need me as a cheerleader, she has you! ;)
When your watching the next game try something for me. On offense, don't watch the ball. Concentrate on the movements of the other 4 players that don't have the ball. This can tell you a lot.
I've watched more basketball in the last 2 weeks than you have remembered in your entire life...
....
I kid, I kid! Jack is a legend 'round these parts....I don't worship you like dcvalpo did, but I revere your knowledge. And, hey, I don't mind being Dorow's cheerleader! Thx for the props!
Quote from: vu72 on January 22, 2013, 07:26:53 AM
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on January 21, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
Ok, so with the recent mentions of dcvalpo, I went back at checked out some of his old postings. This thread is gold. Lots of awesome discussion about the girls' program, the coaching staff, et al. Two years removed, it is interesting to look back and see what the posters thought then as compared to now. jack loved him some Freeman and he seems to not be a Dorow believer today. 72 was his typical self.
These were apparently the golden days of the message board...much more entertaining than most of the drivel posted round these parts nowadays.
HEY!!! I resemble that remark!! ;)
72!!! How have you been? Haven't seen you posting as much lately, or maybe you've toned things down. Hope all is well and you are in good health!
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 03, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
there is clearly a problem.
I don't know about all the players he has coming in but here are two:
Mallory Ladd, an Indiana All Star who finished second in the Miss Basketball voting
Jessica Carr, who is also an Indiana All Star, and has been named the Player of the Year for the second year in a row by the Noblesville County Times.
I know he has a couple of other All State honorees on the current squad. Last year was a mess for a few reasons including injuries and youth. I think it is time for our women's team to step it up!!
So much negativity coming from you here VU72...Keith is a fantastic human being and a great coach and it is win-at-all-costs fanatics like yourself that cause us to lose perspective of what is really important at a school like Valpo. Go cheer for Michigan State or UConn or Coach Cal at Kentucky if you want a program that plays by these rules.
Comparing Tom Izzo to Calhoun and Calipari is like comparing the Pope to Hitler & Stalin. Shame on you.
Dude, hate to break it to you, but the Pope is definitely a Wolverines fan.
Quote from: valpospartan on January 22, 2013, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: dcvalpo on May 03, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: vu72 on April 14, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
there is clearly a problem.
I don't know about all the players he has coming in but here are two:
Mallory Ladd, an Indiana All Star who finished second in the Miss Basketball voting
Jessica Carr, who is also an Indiana All Star, and has been named the Player of the Year for the second year in a row by the Noblesville County Times.
I know he has a couple of other All State honorees on the current squad. Last year was a mess for a few reasons including injuries and youth. I think it is time for our women's team to step it up!!
So much negativity coming from you here VU72...Keith is a fantastic human being and a great coach and it is win-at-all-costs fanatics like yourself that cause us to lose perspective of what is really important at a school like Valpo. Go cheer for Michigan State or UConn or Coach Cal at Kentucky if you want a program that plays by these rules.
Comparing Tom Izzo to Calhoun and Calipari is like comparing the Pope to Hitler & Stalin. Shame on you.
This thread is nearly 2 years old and adopt the meme theme that we have started...
(http://i45.tinypic.com/35256cz.jpg)
(Don't feed the trolls)
Sorry about that, 04. VU72 comes creeping around and I can't resist feeding him from time to time. LOL
Side note: How come you never used the avatar I made you?
Quote from: SadersofthelostArc on January 23, 2013, 09:31:47 AM
Sorry about that, 04. VU72 comes creeping around and I can't resist feeding him from time to time. LOL
Side note: How come you never used the avatar I made you?
You have to get used to valpo04. He is a tough mod, but absolutely fair. We need that kind of presence perusing our board.
Actually, I've not found him to be tough (in the sense of Internet Tough Guy Here), at all.
Modding seems to me to be kind of like reffing--it's a difficult job, everyone rags on you when you trip up, and you're at your best when no one really even notices you're there.
And the fact that we have a moderator and don't hardly notice it is wonderful.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on January 23, 2013, 04:47:18 PM
Actually, I've not found him to be tough (in the sense of Internet Tough Guy Here), at all.
Modding seems to me to be kind of like reffing--it's a difficult job, everyone rags on you when you trip up, and you're at your best when no one really even notices you're there.
And the fact that we have a moderator and don't hardly notice it is wonderful.
Quit ripping 04....he does the best he can. I think it's time you learned to respect his authority.
Thanks for the heads up, btw, DMValpo...THAT is exactly the reason you are a "go-to poster" so to speak for me, when it comes to Valpo hoops, board rules and regs, etc. Any chance we can make DM a mod?????????
Easy now! It's already bad enough that this two year old thread is at the top again. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that we are in the middle of the conference season!
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on January 23, 2013, 05:57:36 PM
Easy now! It's already bad enough that this two year old thread is at the top again. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that we are in the middle of the conference season!
I second that motion. Any discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye.
Aye all those opposed same sign.... Hearing no opposition the motion passes.
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on January 23, 2013, 05:57:36 PM
Easy now! It's already bad enough that this two year old thread is at the top again. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that we are in the middle of the conference season!
(http://i.imgur.com/YGJgo.jpg)