Butler Bball Scheduling

[bbtds]

Here is a question I'd like Butler fans to answer.

I noticed it a couple years ago when the scheduling was announced but forgot to post it on this board. I noticed it in a post on the SLU board about Indiana State's schedule.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27136

Scroll down to HoosierPal's post (#18) on May 20th when he quotes a line about Indiana State's schedule that was in the Terre Haute Tribune Star:

The rest? Butler visits Hulman Center to conclude a 2-for-1, a rare two where the pair was at Hulman Center. ISU plays at Utah State in the Mountain West/MVC Challenge.

There's the mix of the traditional in-state/nearby mid-major foes (Valparaiso, Ball State, Eastern Illinois). Western Kentucky visits Hulman Center and so will a likely Division II team. ISU might do a buy game, but given its schedule, it might not have to.
– Todd Golden, Tribune-Star

Butler gave Indiana State a 2-for-1 with the 2 games at the Hulman Center. Yet they demand a 2-for-1 from Valpo with the 2 games at Hinkle. WHY? What makes Indiana State so much better than Valpo? ISU, a team Valpo beat last season. The simple answer is Butler is scared they will lose to Valpo!!!

[VU2014]

It's because ISU is much more winnable opponent or at least has been the last 5 years. The last 5 years Valpo has been one of the best mid-majors and teams like Butler who are in the Big East don't want a blemish or risk getting a blemish on their NCAA tourney resume. Plus they have leverage. It's just the way it is.

[DuckOnAModerator]

You folks are leaving out the most important factors.  The Hulman Center is a real gym.  It is big enough, and minimally attended so that if the local Butler fans want to go to the game they can still get tickets.  The Arc is a high school gym.  There are better options in Indiana, and RPI is much less of a factor with OOC Scheduling since butler gets plenty of games against quality opponents during the conference season. In all honesty, since IUPUI moved from "the Jungle" to the Coliseum at the State Fair Grounds they are a better fit to give a home game to than Valpo.  No reason to feel butthurt... If you build it they will come, but Valpo has to show that commitment if they want anyone outside the university to consider coming to play.

[VULB#62]

Duck's got a point that most of us, at one time or another, also have stated in similar terms.  We don't have to go to 10,200, like the Hulman, but the ARC should be expanded to at least 6K seats and modernized.  Butler plays against all of it's Big East foes in arenas that are 6.5K - 20K (avg, 13,025).  Villanova's Pavilion is 6,500 -- smallest in the Big East.

[Kyle321n]

If they get over 6k for that game I'll be surprised, or it'll be a Saturday evening and weather will be great.

[M]

We should give them a 2-1, then it's put up or shut up.

[vu84v2]

I would argue that there is another reason why Butler would schedule with Indiana State. Butler is a central Indiana team and they are trying to build their fan base in their geographic area. Indiana State is a reasonable extension of that, while Valparaiso is in a different geographical region (i.e. extended Chicago suburbs).

Once again, I get really tired of people who want a new stadium, but are not going to donate significant money towards it. This falls into the ideology of "I want lots of stuff...and I want someone else to pay for it" that permeates too much of society. Valpo should only renovate the ARC or build a new stadium if it makes financial sense to the university versus other needs. Obviously, if someone wants to donate a huge some of money for a new stadium that would change the financial model.

[vu84v2]

We should give them a 2-1, then it's put up or shut up.

I agree. A 2 for 1 with Butler would give Valpo nice recognition and a quality opponent.

[IrishDawg]

Here is a question I'd like Butler fans to answer.

I noticed it a couple years ago when the scheduling was announced but forgot to post it on this board. I noticed it in a post on the SLU board about Indiana State's schedule.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27136

Scroll down to HoosierPal's post (#18) on May 20th when he quotes a line about Indiana State's schedule that was in the Terre Haute Tribune Star:

The rest? Butler visits Hulman Center to conclude a 2-for-1, a rare two where the pair was at Hulman Center. ISU plays at Utah State in the Mountain West/MVC Challenge.

There's the mix of the traditional in-state/nearby mid-major foes (Valparaiso, Ball State, Eastern Illinois). Western Kentucky visits Hulman Center and so will a likely Division II team. ISU might do a buy game, but given its schedule, it might not have to.
– Todd Golden, Tribune-Star

Butler gave Indiana State a 2-for-1 with the 2 games at the Hulman Center. Yet they demand a 2-for-1 from Valpo with the 2 games at Hinkle. WHY? What makes Indiana State so much better than Valpo? ISU, a team Valpo beat last season. The simple answer is Butler is scared they will lose to Valpo!!!

The game in Terre Haute during the 2014-15 season was a return game for the 2012 Bracketbuster.  It was not part of a 2 for 1 deal.

[VULB#62]

If they get over 6k for that game I'll be surprised, or it'll be a Saturday evening and weather will be great.

We drew 3621 when we beat them there December 9th (a Wednesday).

From the Wichita Eagle's assessment of the MVC (dated March 2015):
INDIANA STATE
Enrollment: 12,114
Location: Terre Haute, Ind. (59,614)
Arena: Hulman Center (10,200)
2014-15 average attendance: 4,430
2013 budget: $1.6 million
MVC finishes 2011-15: 3rd, 8th, 5th, 2nd, T3rd
Postseason play 2011-14: NCAA, CIT, NIT, NIT

Value-added: The Sycamores finished in the bottom three of the MVC eight straight seasons before former coach Kevin McKenna revived the program and current coach Greg Lansing elevated it. Despite budget and population disadvantages, Indiana State is a solid program. Lansing knows how to recruit the right places, mixing local athletes with an emphasis on Texas and select transfers. Possible renovations to the Hulman Center might help. Lansing isn't afraid to schedule good opponents and the Sycamores usually play in strong holiday tournaments. Given the program's shaky history, this run of success is a boost for the MVC. Plus, claiming Larry Bird as a conference great never gets old.

It's a problem: Indiana State's ceiling is likely limited by its enrollment and Terre Haute's population. Its potential for corporate dollars and big donors is minimal compared to some schools. Hulman Center is about 2,000 seats too big to consistently create a good atmosphere. Like most MVC schools, Indiana State fights a losing battle against nearby power conference schools and pro sports. It's foolish to wish for most MVC schools to drop football and spend more on basketball, but Indiana State is the school where that makes the most sense from an outsider's perspective. It has invested little in its football stadium and attendance averaged 5,660 last season in a rare successful season.

[valpo64]

I thought Butler played last year in Muncie and the game was not close to selling out which surprised me.

[VULB#62]

And just for grins here is the Eagle's assessment of Loyola:

LOYOLA
Enrollment: 16,040
Location: Chicago (2.6 million)
Arena: Gentile Arena (4,963)
2014-15 average attendance: 1,824
2013 budget: $2.1 million
MVC finishes 2014-15: 10th, 6th
Postseason play 2011-14: None

Value-added: MVC presidents said no to small towns and yes to the potential of Chicago when they added Loyola to replace Creighton in 2013. Loyola sold the MVC representatives on its TV market, endowment, impressive campus, academics and growing emphasis on athletics. If the administration is serious about basketball, the potential is good. Coach Porter Moser recruits Chicago hard and this season's 18-12 record is the program's best since 2007. The Ramblers improved from 10th to sixth in the MVC despite an injury to star guard Milton Doyle. With a large enrollment and schools of law and medicine, Loyola might be able to energize boosters like Creighton did 20 years ago and elevate the program. Nine Valley schools are waiting to see how much Loyola can contribute.

It's a problem: All the talk of potential is hollow for a program that last played in the NCAA Tournament in 1985. If the Ramblers couldn't win in the Horizon League, skepticism about their ability to win in the MVC is fair. Gentile Arena is the Valley's smallest arena, by far, and crowds under 2,000 should be beneath a Valley member. Loyola is ignored in Chicago, ranking far behind pro sports, the Big Ten, Notre Dame and DePaul. Its games are not broadcast on the radio and media coverage is minimal. The Valley took a risk on a school with little recent athletic success because it had no better options [hey, Valpo wuddah been a better option!]. It is too early to judge if faith in Loyola is warranted.

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article12602204.html

[oklahomamick]

I'm okay with a 2-1 with Bulter.  Fact: With a great season the HL is still a 1-bid league.  What would it matter IF we lose a road game to Butler?  We get moved of the bubble?  Doesn't matter, take the 2-1. 

I wish we played Kentucky and Butler last year not this year....

[justducky]

You folks are leaving out the most important factors.  The Hulman Center is a real gym. 

Somebody should check but I can only remember one regular season TOTAL SELLOUT with Butler. Yes several others were close but we have always liked to call games sellouts that really were not. If the series were renewed I doubt we would completely fill the ARC for a  November or December non conference opponent unless both were top 30 teams. Even in that one sellout I would guess 700 to 800 were Butler followers who managed to find tickets.

I doubt I will ever see another another VU-Butler game. It is history. Ball St-Butler might be the exact same story. Much easier to buy a string of Southern Utah types than actually have to play more than one or two true OOC road games a year.

[vu72]

You folks are leaving out the most important factors.  The Hulman Center is a real gym.  It is big enough, and minimally attended so that if the local Butler fans want to go to the game they can still get tickets. The Arc is a high school gym.  There are better options in Indiana, and RPI is much less of a factor with OOC Scheduling since butler gets plenty of games against quality opponents during the conference season. In all honesty, since IUPUI moved from "the Jungle" to the Coliseum at the State Fair Grounds they are a better fit to give a home game to than Valpo.  No reason to feel butthurt... If you build it they will come, but Valpo has to show that commitment if they want anyone outside the university to consider coming to play.

We all agree the ARC needs a face lift but I call BS on "if you build it they will come".  Our "high school gym" is bigger then or similar in size to seven teams in the A-10.  They seem to be able to attract teams to play at their "high school" facilities. Davidson (capacity 5200) got Pittsburgh to come and play. Fordham, (capacity 3400) got St. John's to come play, GW (capacity 4300) got Virginia and Seton Hall to play, St. Joe's (capacity 4200) got Villanova to play, I could go on.

The simple reality is that Valpo has been too good for substantial opponents to take risks.  These A-10 schools were not near the top of their conference year in and year out like Valpo has been.  Last year St. Joes finished 4th, GW 5th, Davidson 6th and Fordham 8th.

Here is the fact: If we suck they will come. 

[IrishDawg]

I thought Butler played last year in Muncie and the game was not close to selling out which surprised me.

last time Butler played in Muncie was in 2013.  You are correct in that it wasn't close to being a sell-out (6,015 in Worthen which seats 11,500)

Somebody should check but I can only remember one regular season TOTAL SELLOUT with Butler. Yes several others were close but we have always liked to call games sellouts that really were not. If the series were renewed I doubt we would completely fill the ARC for a  November or December non conference opponent unless both were top 30 teams. Even in that one sellout I would guess 700 to 800 were Butler followers who managed to find tickets.

I doubt I will ever see another another VU-Butler game. It is history. Ball St-Butler might be the exact same story. Much easier to buy a string of Southern Utah types than actually have to play more than one or two true OOC road games a year.

Regular season sell-outs against Butler (ARC's capacity is listed at 5,000)
2011-12 - 5,237
2010-11 - 5,432
2009-10 - 5,266
2007-08 - 5,432

The non sell-out contests between Butler and Valpo was the 08-09 regular season matchup in which it was played right after New Year's and drew 4,737 and the Horizon League tourney game in 2012 which drew 4,716.  There was also a regular season meeting prior to Valpo joining the HL in 2006 which was the Thursday after Thanksgiving and drew 4,578.

[firedupkaren]

Here is a question I'd like Butler fans to answer.

I noticed it a couple years ago when the scheduling was announced but forgot to post it on this board. I noticed it in a post on the SLU board about Indiana State's schedule.

Scroll down to HoosierPal's post (#18) on May 20th when he quotes a line about Indiana State's schedule that was in the Terre Haute Tribune Star:

The rest? Butler visits Hulman Center to conclude a 2-for-1, a rare two where the pair was at Hulman Center. ISU plays at Utah State in the Mountain West/MVC Challenge.

There's the mix of the traditional in-state/nearby mid-major foes (Valparaiso, Ball State, Eastern Illinois). Western Kentucky visits Hulman Center and so will a likely Division II team. ISU might do a buy game, but given its schedule, it might not have to.
– Todd Golden, Tribune-Star

Butler gave Indiana State a 2-for-1 with the 2 games at the Hulman Center. Yet they demand a 2-for-1 from Valpo with the 2 games at Hinkle. WHY? What makes Indiana State so much better than Valpo? ISU, a team Valpo beat last season. The simple answer is Butler is scared they will lose to Valpo!!!

As many others have noted, it was not a 2-for-1.  It was a home-and-home.  The first game we played there was a return game from a bracket-buster event.

But why is your question posed as "Why won't Butler play at Valpo?"  It should be phrased as "why won't ANYONE play at Valpo?"  What's been the biggest non-Butler game at the Arc in the past 10-15 years?

I looked over the past 5 years and it looks like it was either Ball State or Duquesne.  So...yeah, it's not a Butler thing.

The Horizon league is markedly below the MVC, which is another reason we'd schedule ISU over Valpo.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the Big East or other power conferences that are willing to schedule a H/H with a Horizon league school.  Butler was an anomaly in that league, which is why they're not in it anymore.

[DuckOnAModerator]

2. Butler didn't get IU or Purdue to schedule them until they got to the finals 2 straight years

IU and PU still don't play Butler at Hinkle...

[vu72]

Here is a question I'd like Butler fans to answer.

I noticed it a couple years ago when the scheduling was announced but forgot to post it on this board. I noticed it in a post on the SLU board about Indiana State's schedule.

Scroll down to HoosierPal's post (#18) on May 20th when he quotes a line about Indiana State's schedule that was in the Terre Haute Tribune Star:

The rest? Butler visits Hulman Center to conclude a 2-for-1, a rare two where the pair was at Hulman Center. ISU plays at Utah State in the Mountain West/MVC Challenge.

There's the mix of the traditional in-state/nearby mid-major foes (Valparaiso, Ball State, Eastern Illinois). Western Kentucky visits Hulman Center and so will a likely Division II team. ISU might do a buy game, but given its schedule, it might not have to.
– Todd Golden, Tribune-Star

Butler gave Indiana State a 2-for-1 with the 2 games at the Hulman Center. Yet they demand a 2-for-1 from Valpo with the 2 games at Hinkle. WHY? What makes Indiana State so much better than Valpo? ISU, a team Valpo beat last season. The simple answer is Butler is scared they will lose to Valpo!!!

As many others have noted, it was not a 2-for-1.  It was a home-and-home.  The first game we played there was a return game from a bracket-buster event.

But why is your question posed as "Why won't Butler play at Valpo?"  It should be phrased as "why won't ANYONE play at Valpo?"  What's been the biggest non-Butler game at the Arc in the past 10-15 years?

I looked over the past 5 years and it looks like it was either Ball State or Duquesne.  So...yeah, it's not a Butler thing.

The Horizon league is markedly below the MVC, which is another reason we'd schedule ISU over Valpo.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the Big East or other power conferences that are willing to schedule a H/H with a Horizon league school.  Butler was an anomaly in that league, which is why they're not in it anymore.

You know the answer.  Because they see it as a lose/lose.Further, it is one of the loudest, most difficult places to play in the country. Over the last five years Butler was in the conference, No. 11 Butler beat us at Valpo by 3, In 08-09 you did beat us by 13 at our place but then again No. 15 Butler beat us by 5 in 09-10.  In 10-11 and 11-12 we won.

  As for the last 15 years,  Really Karen?  Try Purdue, New Mexico State, Cincinnati, Marquette, UCF, St. Louis, New Mexico and others.

[vufan75]

Good answer 72 to Karen. She must not have researched too hard b4 replying. I would imagine scheduling the year after Alec leaves might be a little easier, though not much. The ARC is a tough venue. Ask St Mary's or FSU. Why play there if you feel you have other options. I get that part. Doesn't make me happy but it is the way NCAA D1 hoops works today.

Maybe Bryce or Scott will give us a home game now since they are elsewhere and no conflict of interest will be there once Homer relocates. Doubt it but would be fun.

[justducky]

Regular season sell-outs against Butler (ARC's capacity is listed at 5,000)
2011-12 - 5,237
2010-11 - 5,432
2009-10 - 5,266
2007-08 - 5,432

The non sell-out contests between Butler and Valpo was the 08-09 regular season matchup in which it was played right after New Year's and drew 4,737 and the Horizon League tourney game in 2012 which drew 4,716.  There was also a regular season meeting prior to Valpo joining the HL in 2006 which was the Thursday after Thanksgiving and drew 4,578.

My memory stands corrected and I was there for all 4 games. But as you noticed we have SELLOUTS where the obstructed view seats are purchased (the 5432) and sellouts where they are not (the 5237 variety). Either way our older fan base is dying and not being fully replaced. This year we had our best team ever and only got to a sellout on our 3rd round NIT game vs St. Mary's.

It's not other schools job to make our life easier. Call it what you will being scared or whatever they are doing exactly what we are doing which is looking out for their best interest.

I totally agree and if IrishDawg is comfortable with Butler gutlessly exploiting or ignoring their past adversaries then nothing can change.

As for the desire of some to model ourselves to be the next Butler let me repeat my position. If it is our plan to fight to the top so that we can then piss downhill at those who follow then count me out as I will find another team.

[bbtds]

My question is if the Butler/ISU series was a 1 and 1 why does the Terre Haute Tribune Star say it was a 2 for 1? Were they just wrong?

[wh]

Let's be honest. Karen makes a fair point that we don't have a "Butler" problem, but an "everyone" problem in terms of trying to attract D-1 Majors to come to the ARC. It has very little to do with our conference affiliation or our "high school" gym. It has everything to do with our status as a top mid major and a 1-sided risk/reward equation for teams that come into the ARC. ML and Bryce have said as much on many occasions.

[vu72]

wichita state and gonzaga were all able to schedule top teams. So was Butler when they were mid majors. We either need to take that next step or get a lot worse. Just saying we are too good doesn't tell the entire story. We are either too good or not good enough. We need to become a top 5 mid major to get those games. This involves winning real tournament games.

Well, we finished 5th in the final Mid-Major poll.  As for winning "real" tournament games, I think everybody who matters noticed our "not real" wins over the likes of St. Marys, Florida State and BYU.  The problem with winning "real" tournament games in being in the Horizon where, even if we win, we end up with an 11 or 12 seed and play a top 25 teams.  Can we win? sure, but it isn't a cake walk.  Now, imagine we are in the Big East like our Butler buddies.  Butler finishes 10-8 in the conference, middle of the pack, and gets a 9 seed.  It is a lot easier to be playing a top 35 team then a top 20 team.

[IndyValpo]

My question is if the Butler/ISU series was a 1 and 1 why does the Terre Haute Tribune Star say it was a 2 for 1? Were they just wrong?

They probably called the moron at the Post Tribune to research it.