Attendance decline (free fall?)

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Remember, though, that it takes two to tango...just because you want to take a better-looking girl out doesn't mean she wants you to too.

I mean, I learned that YEARS ago.

That said, wouldn't you think that we would be a good "date" these days?  They might not have wanted to schedule us after 2011-12, when we were coming off a conference (reg) championship and had pretty much everyone back, because we might actually win (freakin' nebraska game, man).  And they wouldn't have wanted to play us based on, say, 2009, when we were in the depths.

But NOW we should be prime pickin's--we're good, so we won't be an RPI drag, but not so good that we would walk into their place and punch them in the mouth (here's where the dating metaphor breaks down, unless you're an NFL player). (TOO SOON)

The "reverential reading" here would be that perhaps they see us as a team on the rise, and so they are wary.

But home-and-homes?  Those are relegated to a different time in college sport.

[VULB#62]

I was at the reunion of the 1964 ICC championship FB team this weekend at Valpo.  So, what does a FB reunion have to do with putting butts in the ARC for BB? Well, related to this issue, at the Saturday night dinner was a digitized  8mm film of many of the games the team played that year taken by a parent of one of the players.  Games against St. Joe's and Butler (both wins, BTW) at Brown Field were particularly illuminating.  And I believe they shed some light on this discussion.

Each of the home games were sellout crowds  -- 6,000 +.  Not only were the home stands packed, but the visitors side (10 rows higher than the present stands BTW) were jammed AND the west side lines from the home bleachers around to the visitor's side were SRO 10  deep.  This was a team that at one point had a losing record (and the record in the previous year, 1963, was 3-6) , but eventually rallied and tied for the conference championship.  Games then were an event.  Valpo had a 100+piece marching band and you could see the same size or larger Butler marching band occupying a huge amount of space on the visitor's side.  The half time was full of energy and activity  -- few left their seats. 

It took me until this Saturday to realize what we had back then.  You were in the minority if you skipped a Saturday football game.  You had to get to Hilltop early for a BB game or you might not get a student seat -- the student section was essentially, the whole lower section below the present upper bleachers of the ARK running the full sideline.

But things are different today.  Vastly different. Many (dare I say most?) students do not care about athletics -- or maybe even the university as a whole. And I doubt that the loyalty and school spirit that was a part of campus life back then exists today among the me generation who are tied to Twitter and Facebook -- those critical keys to life that are so important in posting to the world what is happening in their dreary little lives.  I don't know when things shifted, so I would leave it to some of our younger posters to help identify when the tipping point actually occurred.

This is antithetical to what my avatar tries to convey, but I believe attendance at Valpo home games (you pick the sport) will continue to decline no matter what the athletic department does to bring non-parental bodies into the ARC.   And if you look at who follows Valpo on the road or see who's sitting in the chair backs you'll see a lot of gray hair.  Once those gray hairs (who lived through and remember those days I described above) are resigned to their walkers, you'll see even fewer fans.  Sad as it may sound, guys, that's my bottom line.

[classof2014]

I know I haven't posted on here in a while, since I've been busy getting my life started and such. I do see the trend many people are talking about, about students not caring about the team. For me I went to every basketball game I was able to attend, this even included skipping a final exam to watch them play IPFW of all teams, but that might be the extreme, unfortunately students just don't have the same enthusiasm for sports as they once did. There are still the diehards out there but there just aren't as many as there used to be.

I think a big reason for the decline in fans, especially the students, was the loss of the 2013 senior class. Last year the senior class was made up of all transfers, none of them spent all 4 years in the brown and gold. Unlike Rowdy, EB, KVW, and Matt Kenney, those guys were well liked and people were able to identify more with them or at least that's what I noticed as a student and when they left we had a large incoming freshmen class and a ton of transfers that students didn't know or recognize on campus really well, except for the Vashil and Bobby.

So I do foresee an increase in attendance for home games in the coming years. As a senior last year it seemed like many freshmen would go to the games and talk about the games but the sophomore, junior, and senior classes didn't seem to care as much. So that is a good sign that perhaps attendance will increase.

Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

If you ask me I do foresee student turnout to increase but if nothing is done in the marketing offices the rest of the ARC will remail half empty for a good majority of games.

As for me I look forward to this season but won't be able to attend many games since moving to the Hawkeye State, but I will be in Columbia to watch them take on Mizzou.

[valpo64]

Marketing and winning, marketing and winning, marketing and winning will increase attendance

[jack]

At the end of the day, there are far more choices for students to spend their free time doing than attending sporting events. Back in 63, and 64, you went to the events because everyone you knew was going. If you didn't go, you'd be spending your time alone, as there wasn't much else going on.
Marketing may help a little, and winning always helps, but I just don't see the numbers ever getting back to where they once were. Ironically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events. My guess is because whether you're at home or away, you never really have to travel too far, and it's easier to keep engaged an interested, with less pressure than college students deal with day to day.
   

[gamelord]

Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

I think the main issue with trying to market the team as nwi's team instead of just the city is because of Valparaiso (or Valpo) in the team name. If we were the northwest indiana crusaders  (or something similar) then we'd have a much bigger draw, but since that isn't the case...no matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

[FWalum]

Ironically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events.

Surprised to see you make that statement.  Attendance for high school boy's basketball is way down in this area.  The issue here is primarily the title 9 mandated movement to mid-week boy's games. Other issues are also involved as weekend attendance is not quite what it used to be.

[a3uge]

Student turnout isn't the only thing leading to the decrease in attendance. I think a big issue has been the marketing in NWI, during my 4 years in the region other than a few billboards there wasn't much in terms of marketing, no commercials, adds in other towns, or any signs of Valpo other than in the city itself. If the marketing gurus marketed in Merrillville, Schererville, Highland, Michigan City, LaPorte, etc... as Valpo being NWI's team more people would show up for games. Valparaiso doesn't just belong to the city but it belongs to a region of 750,000 people that you could easily draw from. Last time I checked Valparaiso has been the most successful college basketball team in the Chicagoland area in recent history and why this fact hasn't been marketed throughout the region is beyond me.

I think the main issue with trying to market the team as nwi's team instead of just the city is because of Valparaiso (or Valpo) in the team name. If we were the northwest indiana crusaders  (or something similar) then we'd have a much bigger draw, but since that isn't the case...no matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

In that case, let's just call them the "Indiana Crusaders" to really boost attendance!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

EVEN BETTER HOW 'BOUT THE AMERICA CRUSADERZ

[jack]

Ironically, I still see the big attendances at the high school events.

Surprised to see you make that statement.  Attendance for high school boy's basketball is way down in this area.  The issue here is primarily the title 9 mandated movement to mid-week boy's games. Other issues are also involved as weekend attendance is not quite what it used to be.

Since the decline in college sports attendance is a state, and nationwide issue, I was speaking to the bigger picture here. As a whole, and across the board, the attendance at high school sporting events has leveled off in recent years. I do believe it has declined some in this region, but in other regions, for instance, in the Indy Metro area, they have actually seen an increase at some schools in some sports.

[bbtds]

in the Indy Metro area, they have actually seen an increase at some schools in some sports.

Interesting. I wonder if that is a direct result of channel 40 (free-TV) broadcasting high school sports.

[jack]

Not really sure how free broadcast on 40 would improve game attendance? ?
The point was that actual game attendance in the metro area is up from last season. Not really sure why but it seems to be that way nationally. As others noted, In the NWI region the numbers at the college level are down. Again, not really sure why though the advance of the tech era seems to have some affect.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Not really sure how free broadcast on 40 would improve game attendance?

And here I thought Bill Wirtz had died.

[historyman]

no matter how much advertising you do, outside communities will continue to see it as Valpo's city team.

I've thought many a time if there was a Greek Orthodox Merrillville University with a Div I basketball team playing in the Horizon League would I travel to the far west side of Merrillville to see them play Wright St or UWM. The answer would probably be no.

[wh]

Renovated Hinkle Fieldhouse to be unveiled at Saturday game

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013

A $36 million renovation at a university that is almost a mirror image of Valpo.  I think we need to give Butler their just due.  They had an iconic facility as it was.  Their administration and board could very easily have chosen to maintain the status quo, given lip service to the need for a major facility upgrade, and chosen something instead from the never ending laundry list of critical academic/residential facility needs that every university has.

Strategically, Butler is "all in" on using their men's basketball program to help build their brand.  Clearly, this is not the case with Valpo.  Instead, they are "all in" on using an infusion of foreign students as a vehicle to help build their brand.  Neither strategy is without risk.  It will be interesting to see how the two schools compare 5 years from now.

 

[vu72]

Renovated Hinkle Fieldhouse to be unveiled at Saturday game

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141031/SPORTS/141039933/1013

A $36 million renovation at a university that is almost a mirror image of Valpo.  I think we need to give Butler their just due.  They had an iconic facility as it was.  Their administration and board could very easily have chosen to maintain the status quo, given lip service to the need for a major facility upgrade, and chosen something instead from the never ending laundry list of critical academic/residential facility needs that every university has.

Strategically, Butler is "all in" on using their men's basketball program to help build their brand.  Clearly, this is not the case with Valpo.  Instead, they are "all in" on using an infusion of foreign students as a vehicle to help build their brand.  Neither strategy is without risk.  It will be interesting to see how the two schools compare 5 years from now.

 

But isn't this the classic chicken/egg situation?  Was it truly their administration being "all in" or was it a case of "now we can do this because of all the money we are making via our new conference's TV deal?"    I know, that opens the door to all sorts of previously discussed to death issues... 

[valpo64]

This makeover started some years ago.  The last time we played at Hinkle, a season ticket holder told me the first priority was the roof and upgrading the restrooms.  The first restrooms to be renovated were those near the season ticket holders lower sections in the lower arena.  By-the-way, the men's restrooms still had the trough urinals and they were PORCELIN that was chipped and cracked. And you thought Wrigley Field's were bad!!   At that time they were in the midst of a campaign to renovate the building, the fruits of which you are seeing now.  Their campaign started when they were living the dream of Howard, et al.

[wh]

This makeover started some years ago.  The last time we played at Hinkle, a season ticket holder told me the first priority was the roof and upgrading the restrooms.  The first restrooms to be renovated were those near the season ticket holders lower sections in the lower arena.  By-the-way, the men's restrooms still had the trough urinals and they were PORCELIN that was chipped and cracked. And you thought Wrigley Field's were bad!!   At that time they were in the midst of a campaign to renovate the building, the fruits of which you are seeing now.  Their campaign started when they were living the dream of Howard, et al.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Q: How much of the renovation of Hinkle is due to being in the Big East?  I know some athletic directors don't like the term keeping up with the Joneses, but they admit there is some element of that. How much did it spur you doing this and how much was it just, 'Hey, we've got an 80-plus year-old building and it needs some work?"

Collier: We really began with the building assessment in 2009, before we even went to the Final Four. In 2010, we got that finished and the administration and the trustees all agreed to begin a fundraising, feasibility study. That kind of drove the scope of what we would be able to do.

A: So there's very little truth to the idea that this was spurred by the Big East?

Collier: Very little, if any. We had not even been talking with the (Atlantic 10, which Butler played in for one season before joining the Big East) at that time. Now, we do think we need quality facilities to be successful in Division I. But having said that, we started doing this when were in the Horizon League, long before we were talking about the Big East.

So, as '64 indicates, the decision to spend the money and conduct a fundraising campaign were made while still in the Horizon League - even before they initiated talks with the A-10.  Again, Butler is operating from a different business model than Valpo is. 

http://www.indystar.com/story/butler-insider/2014/10/31/butler-insider-an-interview-with-barry-collier/18258121/

[VU2014]

I thought it might be appropriate to bring this thread back to life because attendance for general admission and the students has been WAY DOWN going back to last season. We have some very real issues that need to be addressed.

The only really well attended game this season was the Loyola game (sub-par student turnout still) at 4040...

Paul really went in the paint hard at Valpo fans and even the Athletics Department over the attendance in his latest podcast (start at 29:20): http://www.nwitimes.com/digital/audio/union-street-hoops/podcast-union-street-hoops-hours-in-america/audio_3efe7bec-0bb0-11e8-8c7d-47a34526f09c.html

Even if you're not a podcast fan I recommend you listen to the back half of his last podcast. He says what needs to be said. Everyone needs to step their game up including the fans. A really great podcast episode.

College Basketball attendance is down pretty much all across the board for most college basketball teams. It seems more often people are staying at home and watching the games on ESPN3 then they are attending the games. It really puts the emphasis on the Athletics Department to step up it's game and enhance the gameday experience which to say the least is lacking. I like the people that work in the AD but things need to change and its not only the on court product that needs to raise its game...

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/960635084574527488

Barry Hinson was doing his media presser today and one of the reporters asked him about attendance and he had a interesting response. One of the reporters also mentioned that the MVC offices reported that attendance numbers on average at MVC games are down on average 700 people per game this season.

(start at 9:30) https://www.pscp.tv/w/1MnGneRWbAwKO
https://twitter.com/SIU_Basketball/status/961338003007385600

[M]

The best draw in the league left and got replaced by ya. That's why attendance is down that much.

[humbleopinion]

In years past, The Times had articles previewing the games.  Now, VU has to place ads to get publicity prior to the games.  Even after the games, articles about VU are often deep into the sports section.  Paul does a nice job of covering the games, but the editors do little to support the only Division 1 program in the coverage area.

[vuny98]

One thing that can't be overlooked is the lack of Friday night/Saturday games we have had over the past two years. Weeknights are hard on everyone. Sunday afternoon competing against Football, hangovers and homework isn't much better. Friday and Saturday night will always have much better attendance (save for outliers like a home NIT game vs Florida State).

That being said, attendance has still be poor as has student interest and it needs to be addressed.

[mj]

Here's what I don't understand about the attendance decline.

1) This years seniors were freshmen and sophomores during two of the greatest seasons of Valpo basketball. They saw an NCAA tournament appearance and a NIT finals game. How the heck do you not become a fan after that?

2) Granted, the city of Valpo has grown since I graduated 10 years ago but come on, how much is really going on in town that would compete for students attention?

3) It appears that other schools are able to draw students to their games. So I'm not sure we can blame our attendance decline on the fact that kids like to spend more time online or whatnot.

Valpo basketball is the face of this university. It's how the public at large even knows that Valpo exists. The basketball team was one of the reasons why I wanted to attend Valpo. The failure to promote this program is....stunning. It is or was one of the most marketable assets of the university.

[agibson]

Valpo basketball is the face of this university. It's how the public at large even knows that Valpo exists. The basketball team was one of the reasons why I wanted to attend Valpo. The failure to promote this program is....stunning. It is or was one of the most marketable assets of the university.

There's some reality to this (face of the university, etc.). And obviously you say "one of" the most marketable assets. But, I'd further emphasize that this is especially true _to sports fans_. To the extent that the US has a sports culture, that the NCAA tournament is a national event, etc. this trickles out to a considerable extent into the mass culture. Gets your name on the evening news, etc.

But, I suspect there are plenty of students, plenty of parents, plenty of guidance counselors, for whom the basketball team isn't very important. To whom factors like regional and national rankings, residential campus, small university, liberal arts feel, quality professional colleges, quality faculty, no graduate TA's, etc, etc. matter a lot more.

I'm neutral, uneducated really, on the extent to which VU is/has "missed an opportunity" in terms of marketing. I just want to point out that basketball is far from the _only_ good thing that Valpo has going!

Back on the original topic of the thread, I'm always fascinated to be reminded that attendance _averaged_ more than 4000 in recent memory.

I attended games in '96, '97, presumably in '98 and '99 (certainly the Sweet Sixteen game, but that was off campus). I wasn't paying attention to attendance or crowd sizes back then, probably, but I have no recollection of the place being 80% full, on _average_!

[vu84v2]

I have mentioned this in other posts, but academic research (at a university similar to Valpo) found that the following two factors most influenced attendance: 1. Perceived quality of the team, 2. Perceived quality of the opponent. After that, everything else is much less important.

However, this might not apply to Valpo. Has anyone thought of asking the students why they do or do not attend games?