Some Faculty Members are trying to get rid of the Crusader & Change the Mascot..

[usc4valpo]

cheese - excellent response. we should have healthy debate and conflict - unlike how government handles situations

[crusader05]

I agree we should. Unfortunately this thread is mostly filled with people mocking those that want to change and implying their idea or reasons are stupid and due to over sensitivity and not maybe a thoughtful reason with a different set of concerns.

I personally voted we should change it. I feel that anytime you glorify a name from a specific war you risk alienating the other side and no side is perfect in a war. We are an independent Lutheran University, not a Catholic one and we do have a sizable Muslim population. I generally cheer Valpo but I do not say I am a Crusader. My choice, I don't feel I am "a snowflake" or "PC". I just am not a fan of our mascot. I also feel that generally these types of fights are not ones worth having. I am more concerned about the quality of our academics, how our athletes handle themselves on and off the field, the service work our student's due and the leadership they display. That's Valpo to me.

[Valpo89]

I do not say I am a Crusader.

Odd thing to say, crusader05.

[vu84v2]

I also voted for Valparaiso changing the mascot name for essentially the same reasons as crusader05. I also will never wear clothing that says "Crusader", but am glad to wear clothing the says "Valparaiso University" and speak highly of and support programs such as those summarized by crusader05.

I welcome the debate on the topic, and am not going to walk away angry from the university if they decide not to change the name. I am no historian, but am sure that there are valid reasons, from different perspectives, why the name is honorable and why the name is offensive. In my opinion, you just cannot get away form the definition of Crusader being "Christian fighting against Muslim".

That said. I would also argue that this is far from a major issue. Valparaiso has muslim students that come to the school now, and we can presume that many know the mascot name. I am not aware that the university does or allows anything that is 'anti-muslim' (and I would have a huge problem if they did), so it is fairly reasonable to assume that changing the mascot name is a solution looking for a problem. On the other side, people who argue that changing the mascot will drive away alums and their donations are making a very weak argument. Marquette, for instance, changed their name from Warriors to Golden Eagles. There is a very vocal minority that argues that this, and other things, have destroyed the university. Yet, there is no evidence (reduced applications and enrollment, university rankings, sports attendance, donations, etc.) that supports their argument. Thus, thinking that supportive alums and their dollars, along with fans, will meaningfully decrease if Valparaiso change the mascot name is not supported by similar situations at other universities.

[crusader05]

Sorry, I should have clarified. This is a decision I have come to in the last year or two, after my screen name was set and just have never changed it. But currently when people ask i identify as a Valpo Alumna, not a Crusader.

I used to not really care much or think about the name although I know this debate has been raging for years and years. Which is partly why I came around to changing it. I just felt that any reason I could think of to keep it didn't seem to be as important as the argument that it could be unwelcoming or make others feel slightly less comfortable.

[agibson]

Chiming in quickly, having only skimmed the earlier replies.

I'd be happy to change to something that didn't run the risk of glorifying war, and specifically war tinged with religious conflict. I guess most of us would agree that it's better to avoid wars when there are other reasonable alternatives.

I might generically prefer something animal themed, if we want to stick with something violent and aggressive. Or the natural world could have other options (Wheaton's Thunder doesn't sound so bad). Or I enjoy names with local or historical connections (Boilermakers, Packers, Brewers, etc. could we be the Martin Luthers?).

It's not the only connotation "Crusader" has, but I'm not proud of that extended historical episode including military campaigns in the middle ages. I don't know how much the Crusader mascot bothers our significant number of Muslim students, alumni, faculty, and staff. Or our Jewish community members, or others connected with or concerned about the various groups that the medieval Crusades targeted. There's a chance that "liberals/progressives" generically care more about this than "Muslims/Middle Easterners" generically do - I'm just not sure. But, it seems an odd thing to celebrate. Who would be excited by a "Jihadi" mascot? But I guess it could carry many of the same connotations, positive and negative, as does "Crusader".

If people really preferred a military-themed mascot, and liked historical connections, I could probably support a return to the Uhlan. Why do we tolerate the "political correctness" that led to removing the Uhlan during WWII? We might not even need to change the mascot or graphics. Even the "Knights" would be preferable to the "Crusaders". Probably the Uhlans committed their share of atrocities and certainly "Knights" could have positive and negative connotations and knights no doubt committed deeds both bad and good, like the rest of us. But I'd consider either Uhlans or Knights less fraught than Crusaders.

I avoid Crusader-labeled gear when I can, preferring Valparaiso gear.

I cheer, often passionately, for Valpo. I don't cheer for the Crusaders.

[VU2014]

An interesting take agibson. I get not wanting to glorify war but I don't think the Crusader intentionally glorifies war. Could there possibly be reasonable alternatives? I guess yes.

There's a chance that "liberals/progressives" generically care more about this than "Muslims/Middle Easterners" generically do - I'm just not sure.

I think this may be the case. I don't keep up with a lot of my Middle-eastern classmates as much as I should but I remember going to a game with a couple of my Muslims peers after class once and I don't think there was any hint of tension or disappointment about the mascot being a crusader. I do think this "movement" is being pushed by a small segment of "progressives" faculty and a few students. I consider myself to be a fairly socially liberal guy and I sort of think this is a bit of an active push to try and find something to change that has never been a point of contention before as far as I can tell.

But, it seems an odd thing to celebrate. Who would be excited by a "Jihadi" mascot? But I guess it could carry many of the same connotations, positive and negative, as does "Crusader".

I just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades. Also the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world. It's just not in the same situation. I get what you mean though.

I just think there really isn't that much conflict with the word "Crusader". I just feel like this actively seeking to find offense in something. I agree though that I don't root for the team because the word crusader, I root for the University and the team.

Side Note: I really don't like the sound of the Valparaiso Uhlan. Just doesn't sound right. 

[valpo64]

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

[crusader05]

People care about different things than you care about. It doesn't mean they don't have a life or they're at fault. It just means they are individuals who think differently.

[agibson]

Also the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world. It's just not in the same situation. I get what you mean though.

I think this is a good point - historical distance probably does matter.

You're right that "Jihadi" is probably a more loaded word right now than "Crusader", at least for most Americans.

But in an era when a major party political candidate can openly call for a ban on Muslims, and then get elected, I'd prefer to avoid inflaming religious tensions. And I'm not sure that we're really all that distant historically from politicized "Crusader" language. I suspect that ISIS and other similar groups love the "clash of civilizations" narrative and find fertile recruiting ground in promoting a "Crusader vs Jihadi" or "Christianity and the West vs Islam and the Middle East" story. I'd prefer not to aid them.

[vu84v2]

Quote from above:
"Also the "crusader" warriors were basically a thousand years ago. "Jihad" is actively being practiced right now and is in direct conflict with Westernized democracies around the world."

Over the years, I have had the privilege of working with and knowing quite a few muslims. In several cases, i knew them well enough to ask about the word "Jihad". They have generally felt that the primary definition of the word Jihad is the personal struggle to best serve God and live a meaningful life devoted to family, the community, etc. When asked about terrorism and fundamentalism that harms large populations, they will say that the Quran talks about secondary aspects of Jihad in the generalized term "defending Islam" and that evil groups have corrupted Islam and co-opted the term "Jihad".

The point here is that the meaning of words can evolve over time and be interpreted differently by different groups of people. Perhaps we need to focus more on the intent of the people using the word rather than words that can have wildly different interpretations. While I would favor changing the mascot name (though, as I stated previously, I see this as sort of a solution seeking a problem), I agree with VU2014's point that, because of the broader mission and actions of all parties at Valparaiso University, I have never felt that the Crusader mascot is a celebration of the crusades.

[vu84v2]

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

[Pgmado]

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

[vu84v2]

True, but you have to look at the broader donation picture to attempt to answer the question of whether the name change had a tangible impact. Were there other donors that donated money because of the name change? We don't know. What we do know is that all of the tangible measures that I listed have stayed equal or improved. Now those measures could be due to unrelated factors having a greater positive impact than the negative impact from changing the mascot name at Marquette. Without a much broader set of information, we cannot honestly assess whether the name change has had a negative impact and thus making a claim regarding the 'big difference' is not valid.

[VU2014]

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

One of my friends went to Marquette and his Dad went there also when they were the Warriors and every-time I hung out at my buddies house when the MU game was on, his Dad would mentioned how he hated the Golden Eagles Mascot. Was seriously not happy about it. I guess a lot of his generation of alumni are still ticked about it.

Also there are a TON of University of Illinois fans/alumni that are still ticked about the University getting rid of the Chief. I remember a few years ago when U of I was sort of going through an administrative shake up there was a lot of talk about bringing back the Chief.

Passions run hot about this stuff it seems.

[Just Sayin]

Let's not lose our heads over this.

[FieldGoodie05]

Do we alienate some of our past in order to make a small number of ppl happy?  Go for a vote, include Alumni....see what happens.

I'd like to see 1,000 signatures (current and former students only) before a vote could take place.  Guess there is nothing wrong in bringing up a topic, but they better dang well ensure that enough Alumni get a vote.

[crusader05]

I think the other piece is that time moves on. The question becomes when does the blow back from Alumni not meet what we perceive as other lost resources.  The same situation was happening in regards to LGBT life at my time. I had several friend who worked in alumni giving and they said there were older alums who would not donate because Alliance was allowed on campus and those that wouldn't until the university was more open.

I know that recently Giving has been working to mend relationships with LGBT students who did not have a positive experience at Valpo and have had some success.  The reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need. Again, i'm not sure exactly how much pressure there really is for change, the university is doing strategic planning so my guess is it's coming up a bit more now than usual because of that. I do think that you'll find very passionate people on both ends and a majority in the middle, like most issues. The pressure point will be when which side has more leverage regarding their role within the university OR if they feel it's actively hurting the university.

[VU2014]

I think the other piece is that time moves on. The question becomes when does the blow back from Alumni not meet what we perceive as other lost resources.  The same situation was happening in regards to LGBT life at my time. I had several friend who worked in alumni giving and they said there were older alums who would not donate because Alliance was allowed on campus and those that wouldn't until the university was more open.

I know that recently Giving has been working to mend relationships with LGBT students who did not have a positive experience at Valpo and have had some success.  The reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need. Again, i'm not sure exactly how much pressure there really is for change, the university is doing strategic planning so my guess is it's coming up a bit more now than usual because of that. I do think that you'll find very passionate people on both ends and a majority in the middle, like most issues. The pressure point will be when which side has more leverage regarding their role within the university OR if they feel it's actively hurting the university.

What year did you graduate? I know a couple of gay and lesbian alumni who loved their experience at Valpo. They come back for homecoming every single year. At least in my time at school nobody really felt alienated as a far as I can tell.

The reality is that the university also needs younger alumna to start donating early and to stay engaged and not just rely on older ones. That may mean that some changes are going to reflect that need.

The reason many younger alumni are not donating is because the amount of student debt that young people incur these days. Many won't be donating for a while till they start feeling more financial security. This is a whole different topic but the student crisis is pretty serious in this country. Schools tuition prices have become outrageous compared to what it use to cost to go to school. Could be a major problem for smaller private University like Valpo if the student loan bubble ever burst.

Total student loan debt in the US has topped $1.3 trillion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-state-of-the-union-2016-1

[crusader05]

I graduated in 2005 where Alliance and such was not as supported by the University administration or the campus as a whole the way it is now.

As far as younger Alums I mean more those in their 30-50s. People in my age range who are starting to become established in their careers and making money. they may not be able to donate Millions now, but they can start donating in larger sums and be cultivated to be reliable donors in the future. We have seen some of that occur but that group of Alums may have different views/desires etc

[VU2014]

I graduated in 2005 where Alliance and such was not as supported by the University administration or the campus as a whole the way it is now.

As far as younger Alums I mean more those in their 30-50s. People in my age range who are starting to become established in their careers and making money. they may not be able to donate Millions now, but they can start donating in larger sums and be cultivated to be reliable donors in the future. We have seen some of that occur but that group of Alums may have different views/desires etc

Gotcha. 

I'll never forget it. The day after I graduated I got a call already asking if I'd like to donate lol

[valpo64]

No offense to those who may have strong feelings about this....but in my case, who cares  If somebody really cares about things like this and wants to donate $1 million for a mascot name change, go for it.

[crusadermoe]

I had a little fun with suggesting we try "Valparaiso Snowflakes" in a prior post.   

But I do agree with other posters that open discussion is good.

Most of us recall this mascot thing coming up constantly and also recall it being crushed in a recent vote.  So it seems a little amusing and a little tiresome to me.  But there are always new students and new faculty who are entitled to take a run at it. Somewhere there are placards in need of some new sharpee artists.

[VU2014]

Most of us recall this mascot thing coming up constantly and also recall it being crushed in a recent vote.  So it seems a little amusing and a little tiresome to me.  But there are always new students and new faculty who are entitled to take a run at it. Somewhere there are placards in need of some new sharpee artists.

What year did it get voted on?

[bigmosmithfan1]

This isn't I feel that strongly about one way or the other, but those of you up in arms over the prospect of a new nickname know VU already changed its nickname once before as a result of geopolitical concerns (and the risk of offending others), right?

Miami-Ohio didn't suffer after changing their nickname - they actually went to a Sweet 16 in basketball two years after their name change and finished in the AP Top 10 in football five years afterwards, and have been to multiple Frozen Fours in hockey since, and had no trouble privately funding a new hockey arena, major renovations to their football stadium, as well as a brand new athletic performance center. Marquette has had no lack of success in hoops since ditching their old nickname, too.

Keep it, don't keep it, whatever. Just know that ditching it would be very unlikely to hurt. There's zero evidence that nicknames are correlated to athletic success or donors long-term.