Youngstown State - Valpo (9/10)

[milanmiracle]

I am sure ther are people on this forum who are already aware  , but Valpo's next opponent will be taking on #17 Michigan State this weekend at 7:30. It's a night game though so seeing both might be a bit of a problem unless you TiVo it.

[vuweathernerd]

most dangerous game of the year, the way i see it. it'll be a victory if nobody gets seriously hurt. forget the score. who in their right mind schedules a 1AA powerhouse against a team on a 20 game (quite possibly soon 21 game losing streak), and rated as the worst team in d1?

[vu72]

Don't they play Ohio State after us??  I suppose that makes sense for them...a breather after the bruising we will lay on them!!   

[valporun]

I am sure ther are people on this forum who are already aware  , but Valpo's next opponent will be taking on #17 Michigan State this weekend at 7:30. It's a night game though so seeing both might be a bit of a problem unless you TiVo it.

I believe the YSU-MSU game is this evening, so it wouldn't be in conflict with going to the Franklin-Valpo game tomorrow night.

[milanmiracle]

most dangerous game of the year, the way i see it. it'll be a victory if nobody gets seriously hurt. forget the score. who in their right mind schedules a 1AA powerhouse against a team on a 20 game (quite possibly soon 21 game losing streak), and rated as the worst team in d1?

I am going to agree with just trying to survive without major injurys, especially watching the first quarter of the MSU game. It's 0-0 at the end of the 1st and YSU has outgained MSU 87-29.

[historyman]

Michigan State 28, Youngstown State 6

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/gametracker/recap/NCAAF_20110902_YST@MIST/no-17-michigan-state-rolls-youngstown-state-in-opener

Lets hope Valpo can stay that close to D3 Franklin.

"The underdog Penguins held their own in the first half, controlling the ball for 19:36 thanks to a 14-8 advantage in first downs. After a scoreless opening quarter, Michigan State finally took the lead on a 6-yard touchdown run by Larry Caper."

[milanmiracle]

I watched the entire game on the BTN, and Youngstown wasn't out of that game until the 4th quarter. Youngstown even had opportunities to make it a closer game. A blocked extra point and a missed field goal cost them 4 points. Sparty also missed a field goal, so that sort of cancels itself.

Point of all this...YSU wasn't outmatched physically against MSU, I fear the same can't be said when Valpo plays Youngstown. I am truly concerned for the safety of the players.

[vu72]

I watched the entire game on the BTN, and Youngstown wasn't out of that game until the 4th quarter. Youngstown even had opportunities to make it a closer game. A blocked extra point and a missed field goal cost them 4 points. Sparty also missed a field goal, so that sort of cancels itself.

Point of all this...YSU wasn't outmatched physically against MSU, I fear the same can't be said when Valpo plays Youngstown. I am truly concerned for the safety of the players.

I understand the concern and it isn't without merit based on what I also saw last night.  However, Valpo isn't without size and probably not just short fat kids.  The weight lifting program has no doubt impacted the muscle on our guys.  For example, on the offensive line we have Nate Blair, a 6'5" 305 lb. senior and on defensive we have Nico
Carson at 6'3" 275 lbs, also a senior.  At wide receiver we have guys like senior Sean McCarty at 6'5" 210 lbs and even the starting quarterback, Eric Hoffman is 6'3" 200 lbs.

My point is that they are more athletic and faster but not necessarily bigger.  With our new conditioning effort I would be surprised to see a bunch of injuries.  I played in a bunch of lopsided losses and injuries weren't necessarily part of the process.  Let's hope I'm right.

[Crusader65]

The thing that I hope for is the effort.  Are the players prepared to go for four quarters regardless of outcome?  This team can score and has enough talent to stay on the field.  We used to play Indiana State and Ball State as conference games when I first came to Valpo.  Great mismatches with talent even back then but with our mental and physical effort we let them know they were in a game.  I guess Lou Holtz says it best - "When you're wrestling with a gorilla you don't stop when you get tired but only when the gorilla gets tired!"  Injuries shouldn't be a concern as long as clean play is promoted and monitored by coaches and referees.  Size doesn't always win but quickness and speed kills.  I hope we can match the quickness and speed portion or Katy bar the door.  Go VU!

[milanmiracle]

I too hope for effort, but I fear that being completely outclassed will take it's toll. I am concerned about the injury possibility and the Psyche of the team after this loss. And no they can't win. I just hope they realize it's a long season and all the games won't be like this one.

Do you really believe that "this team can score and has enough talent to stay on the field". They just lost to a DIII school with significant losses from last year and you want me to believe they have enough talent to play with YSU? We're still talking about the same YSU that just hung with #17 Michigan State, right? This is a "name the score" game. It won't be as bad as Jacksonville, but it won't be pretty either.

Let's just be happy there was some improvement in the first game of the season and let's write this off as a game that shouldn't have happened.

*Also...There's a reason people don't wrestle gorillas, you won't win and the end result might not be very pretty.

[vu72]

I too hope for effort, but I fear that being completely outclassed will take it's toll. I am concerned about the injury possibility and the Psyche of the team after this loss. And no they can't win. I just hope they realize it's a long season and all the games won't be like this one.

Do you really believe that "this team can score and has enough talent to stay on the field". They just lost to a DIII school with significant losses from last year and you want me to believe they have enough talent to play with YSU? We're still talking about the same YSU that just hung with #17 Michigan State, right? This is a "name the score" game. It won't be as bad as Jacksonville, but it won't be pretty either.

Let's just be happy there was some improvement in the first game of the season and let's write this off as a game that shouldn't have happened.

*Also...There's a reason people don't wrestle gorillas, you won't win and the end result might not be very pretty.

Miracle has on a few occasions pointed to the fact that we lost to a D3 school. The reality is, and I'm puzzled as to why this isn't obvious, we ARE a D3 football team.  What's the distinction?  We are a small school who has non-scholarship players. Franklin?  A small school with non-scholarship players.

Now, from a recruiting standpoint saying were D1 might help and the national scope of our conference and travel may well help also.  It seems pretty obvious that if you tell a kid that he will play games on both coasts might be n advantage to telling a kid they will be on a bus each weekend, who knows.

The reality is that Jacksonville could have probably won the D3 national championship but it would have been a tough game for even them.  We just hung with the 24th ranked D3 school and we are clearly in a rebuilding/restarting mode.  

So, should we be playing Youngstown State?  No, although the kids probably are looking forward to playing in front of 20,000 or so and testing their level of play in the same way the basketball team looked forward to playing Kansas--I'd guess!!

With Valpo's national draw I would expect the team to get to a level where we regularly beat teams like Franklin and can compete, in the same way that Youngstown State did with Michigan State, with the Western Illinois' and Youngstown State's of the world.  Just not this week.

[valpo64]

Let's back off some of the harsh criticism of our young football team...we are starting from scratch basically....we have a new coach who has great credentials, building a "new" program and molding a new attitude, new defensive and offensive systems, just now recruiting players who fit his systems, and using many young players as he builds the program.  As for the team, keep working hard guys and your efforts will pay dividends in the near future.  Go Valpo!

[milanmiracle]

Miracle has on a few occasions pointed to the fact that we lost to a D3 school. The reality is, and I'm puzzled as to why this isn't obvious, we ARE a D3 football team.  What's the distinction?  We are a small school who has non-scholarship players. Franklin?  A small school with non-scholarship players.

I know we've had this discussion before, but I'll point out again...Valpo is a D1 school. Not a lot of grey area here. Show me some documentation that says DIII and I'll go along with you. Valpo can't schedule YSU and then claim competing with Franklin is the goal. Does not compute.

[vu72]

I understand your position but I'm just being practical.  Non-scholarship is non-scholarship and will draw the same type players.  Look, the pride of the Pioneer League at the moment, Jacksonville, just lost to The Citadel 31-9!! The Citadel is ranked 174 in the Sagarins and not that much better than Dayton at 180 or Jacksonville at 184 or so.  We can't compete with the Southern Conference nor any other scholarship conference.  Those are facts.  I'll flip the question: show me some evidence that ANY Pioneer League team could compete with a scholarship team.  Sure, you might find a win or two but that's about it.  Our goal should be to win the Pioneer League and not get embarrassed against smaller D1 scholarship programs like The Citadel AND, beat the Franklins of the world on a regular basis--not KILL them because we are "D1", but just win.

Let me add one other example.  In 2003 Valpo won the Pioneer Championship with David Macchi at the helm.  That season included wins against Dayton, San Diego and Drake.  It also included a loss to Murray State, 34-0.  I rest my case...  

[rlh]

I understand your position but I'm just being practical.  Non-scholarship is non-scholarship and will draw the same type players.  Look, the pride of the Pioneer League at the moment, Jacksonville, just lost to The Citadel 31-9!! The Citadel is ranked 174 in the Sagarins and not that much better than Dayton at 180 or Jacksonville at 184 or so.  We can't compete with the Southern Conference nor any other scholarship conference.  Those are facts.  I'll flip the question: show me some evidence that ANY Pioneer League team could compete with a scholarship team.  Sure, you might find a win or two but that's about it.  Our goal should be to win the Pioneer League and not get embarrassed against smaller D1 scholarship programs like The Citadel AND, beat the Franklins of the world on a regular basis--not KILL them because we are "D1", but just win.

Let me add one other example.  In 2003 Valpo won the Pioneer Championship with David Macchi at the helm.  That season included wins against Dayton, San Diego and Drake.  It also included a loss to Murray State, 34-0.  I rest my case... 

Using logic with some of these fans is a lost effort....the fact that our football team is called Division I is because of the NCAA and their ridiculous labeling for affect....We are Division I in football in name only and anyone who disagrees just isn't looking at the facts.

[Crusader65]

Again I have to explain my words to those that choose to find the darkcloud in ever day's sky.  I'm not claiming the Crusaders of today are ready for a program like YSU but my football mind focuses on two distinct points.  One, YSU has more on the line here than Valpo.  No good thing can come out of this for them if we don't perform to some level and if they don't take us seriously and don't show up their best they will have to regroup to save their butts before the fans and media.  Second, their own coach called them out for quitting in the fourth quarter against MSU.  There are two kinds of quitting - one when you're giving up and the other when you think you have it socked away - in both cases your mailing it in.

Since we can score this year with a uptempo passing attack anything can happen in the open field.  We will most likely be playing against some of their 2's and 3's during some time of the game. That's why I said we can stay on the field rather than compare it to Jacksonville last year where that Valpo team left the field.  This years team is young and they don't know what they don't know yet and that makes them more resilient and willing to "wrestle a gorilla".  As a metaphor, I'm having a problem with milanmiracle's moniker if he would believe one thing about the ultimate "Hoosier" story but deny that each athlete longs for a moment to shine in the spotlight on a stage beyond their status - even for a few plays.

If being realistic is all that is called for on this on this forum then - I can predict that none of our teams will win a national championship this year or perhaps any year in the near future but it doesn't mean that we don't play the games and grow to compete on the field, court, diamond, course, lanes or classrooms, boardrooms and life.

We are Crusaders!

[valpo84]

You all also have to remember that this game brings a nice Check. Just like YSU is willing to go play MSU and App State plays other BS err BCS schools, Valpo is moving up to play a FCS school and with that is the chance to see how your program is doing, give the players a chance to compete in a big stadium with lots of fans (YSU is a nice facility), help with recruiting in one of the best areas of the country for talent (NEOhio) and to cover some of the costs of the program. With budgets tight and the economy tough, other people's money is helpful. The timing is not ideal as I am sure Dale would like this game in another year or two. Good luck Crusaders and learn from the experience and get meaner and tougher on D.

[historyman]

Miracle has on a few occasions pointed to the fact that we lost to a D3 school. The reality is, and I'm puzzled as to why this isn't obvious, we ARE a D3 football team.  What's the distinction?  We are a small school who has non-scholarship players. Franklin?  A small school with non-scholarship players.

I know we've had this discussion before, but I'll point out again...Valpo is a D1 school. Not a lot of grey area here. Show me some documentation that says DIII and I'll go along with you. Valpo can't schedule YSU and then claim competing with Franklin is the goal. Does not compute.

I can't believe that someone like you, milanmiracle, doesn't understand this. The NCAA calls it Div.1 but Valpo treats it just like all the Div.3 schools do. Valpo does not give out scholarships which is the same thing Div.3 does. There is no difference between Div.3 and the Pioneer League teams except the name that it is called by the NCAA. Show me a difference between the Pioneer League football programs and the NCAA Div.3 programs. There is not one. Only the name of the Division.

[milanmiracle]

I understand your position but I'm just being practical.  Non-scholarship is non-scholarship and will draw the same type players.  Look, the pride of the Pioneer League at the moment, Jacksonville, just lost to The Citadel 31-9!! The Citadel is ranked 174 in the Sagarins and not that much better than Dayton at 180 or Jacksonville at 184 or so.  We can't compete with the Southern Conference nor any other scholarship conference.  Those are facts.  I'll flip the question: show me some evidence that ANY Pioneer League team could compete with a scholarship team.  Sure, you might find a win or two but that's about it.  Our goal should be to win the Pioneer League and not get embarrassed against smaller D1 scholarship programs like The Citadel AND, beat the Franklins of the world on a regular basis--not KILL them because we are "D1", but just win.

Let me add one other example.  In 2003 Valpo won the Pioneer Championship with David Macchi at the helm.  That season included wins against Dayton, San Diego and Drake.  It also included a loss to Murray State, 34-0.  I rest my case... 

Don't get me wrong, I know were you are coming from too, I just don't agree with the premise.

I can't show you any evidence that a Pioneer League champ can compete with  a scholarship football program, but that's kind of my point as well. It's sad really, don't you think? What are you really winning then?

[vu72]

It appears that the winner of the conference will get into the 1AA(or whatever they are calling it now) playoffs.  The probability of success there is remote, but still, it is at a higher level than D3.

Winning the title is the goal obviously.  I'm just saying that we need to temper our expectations in the same way that the winner of the MAC understands that they won't be in a BCS bowl.  I think the Pioneer champ plays the Northeast champ, or someone, so there is a "post season" potential as well.

The appeal for a young man goes beyond the quality of the education and the recognition of the degree in the workplace.  From a football experience point of view, as I've stated earlier, you get national exposure (limited), national travel and presumably better perks, like the school buying your shoes fro example.

I have no idea what it costs to go to Franklin versus Valpo, but if its even close I would think our coaches have a pretty compelling story to tell.


Beyond all that, what are we really winning is a good question.  I think it is about the experience and camaraderie more than just winning.

[setshot]

Sagarin stll has Valpo ranked at 246. I don't know why. Hell, we scored 35pts,averaged over 43 yds. on 10 punts,and amassed over 400 yds. on offensive. I guess the real problem was our "D." Franklin tip-toed through our tulip "D" for a total of 669 yds.and 7 tds. Oh well,there are easier opponents out there. One or two of our wins (maybe 4) could come from the likes of Sagarin rated teams such as: Campbell #243,Davidson #239,Morehead #236, or Butler # 234. Let's take all four. GO VALPO!

[vu72]

Well said setshot.

Looking at the schedule it appears we aren't the only Pioneer League team sticking its neck out. This Saturday, Jacksonville plays Western Illinois, Butler plays Indiana State and Morehead plays Illinois State. Not Youngstown State, but still, a big challenge.

I also saw that Marist is playing Bucknell of the Patriot League. Those teams seem like good competition for us and teams with good name recognition. Could also help our recruiting for students on the east coast.

At the same time I noticed the logo for Holy Cross, one of the Patriot teams.

Does this look familiar?  http://www.goholycross.com/  Funny, no face??  

[covufan]

Will be a tough week. 

YSU - 42
VU   - 10

[historyman]

Yes, Youngstown State will be a very tough opponent.

66-13 YSU

[historyman]

Does this look familiar?  http://www.goholycross.com/  Funny, no face??  

It's very interesting that the Holy Cross Crusader mascot doesn't have a face either. The costume seems to be much more managable as far as movement. Here's a look at the Crusader mascot from the back as he is typing at a typerwriter.

http://www.goholycross.com/genrel/Notes/090611crusadernotes

Here is another look at the Holy Cross Crusader

http://www.goholycross.com/information/directory/General_Releases/051711npr